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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I consider dialog system developers to be end users in this
context, just as they are end users of ASR technology.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>VS is the problem dependency since it forces people to spend
real money (~$700 for “Pro”) in order to use our software.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Alex<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> Thomas K Harris
[mailto:tkharris@cs.cmu.edu] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 05, 2008 10:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alex Rudnicky<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Olympus Developers<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Olympus developers 30]: Re: cmucltk changes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>OK, so this is option (2), where every exported change by
the developers requires a compilation and repository check-in under both
windows and linux. I don't like reintroducing cygwin and linux into the
developers' requirements; presumption of knowledge notwithstanding. But of
course the other options have issues, too. I'll make the necessary changes to
Olympus to support this.<br>
<br>
BTW, We've put a lot of effort into making Olympus easier to use, but I don't
think of any current or near-team Olympus developer as an "end user".
I don't think Olympus is polished or robust enough yet, and as an open-source
and modular system, it encourages research development in all its components.<br>
<br>
-Thomas<br>
<br>
Alex Rudnicky wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Cmculmtk comes with compiled windows native and linux versions<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(available from sourceforge). There is no reason for an "end user" to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>work with the source code for this tool, so I think it's ok to just<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>distribute binaries. (This is already necessary for the pronunciation<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>code.)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Cmuculmtk had to change because it contained library calls no longer<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>supported by mainstream linux/gnu systems. It was also not structured<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>all that well (I suspect that the latter is what's killing the VS<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>build.)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>If someone does want to alter the code, the presumption should be that<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>they know enough to deal with Cygwin and perl (if they don't, they<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>shouldn't be fooling around down at that level).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Alex<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: <a
href="mailto:olympus-developers-bounces@LOGANBERRY.srv.cs.cmu.edu">olympus-developers-bounces@LOGANBERRY.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>[<a
href="mailto:olympus-developers-bounces@LOGANBERRY.srv.cs.cmu.edu">mailto:olympus-developers-bounces@LOGANBERRY.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>] On Behalf<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Of TK Harris<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:41 AM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: Benjamin Frisch<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Cc: Olympus Developers<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Subject: [Olympus developers 29]: Re: cmucltk changes<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>A test framework doesn't help what I see are the real problems with (1) <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>and (2), which are that developers need to develop in multiple <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>environments regardless of whether the code changes involve os <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>dependencies. This is already a problem for the sphinxes. As David says,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>"Every time I switch to Windows an angel dies". Even if an angel doesn't<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>die, he's wasting his time. More often, I'm guessing that the build just<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>gets broken, as happened recently with Alex's changes.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>(1) If we want to keep VS build stuff, in order to do any file structure<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>changes (including simply adding a file) developers will need to have <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>windows, visual studio, and linux (or cygwin).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(2) This option is even worse. If we want to use binaries, _any_ change <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>will require the developer to compile in windows and linux.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Perhaps this is a good test case for a forth option: cmake or its ilk.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>-Thomas<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Benjamin Frisch wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>I am not in favor of introducing a Cygwin dependency as well; however,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>I understood the original message to imply that the rebuilt binaries<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>do not require Cygwin to run. If the former is true I am ok with a VS<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Windows build being pushed off until 2.3; however, I think 1 is ideal<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>if Cygwin/Unix support for the cmulmtk can be retained along with VS<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>build support with relative ease in time for 2.2. (Perhaps, we need a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>test framework for this?)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Ben<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 12:06 AM, Antoine Raux <a
href="mailto:antoine@cs.cmu.edu"><antoine@cs.cmu.edu></a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre>wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Until we have a Linux version of Olympus, I'm in favor of not<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre>introducing a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Cygwin dependency, so I prefer solution 1), although I don't know how<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre>hard<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>that would be...<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> antoine<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> TK Harris wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Recent changes have broken the Visual Studio build of the cmucltk,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre>which<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre>Olympus depends on. The stable 2.1 branch of Olympus is pegged to an<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre>older<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>version of the toolkit, so for now only the trunk is affected. I see<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre>that<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Alex has improved the cygwin build so that it's well integrated with<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre>the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>linux builds, and yet builds native Windows executables, also it<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre>looks like<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>there are binaries checked in.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>We can either<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>1) fix the VS build<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>2) just use checked-in executables<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>3) require cygwin for an Olympus build<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I don't really like any of these options; they each have some<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre>negatives.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre>I'm open to suggestions.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>-Thomas<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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