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Dear Asim:</div>
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Place cells are spatio-temporal constructs subject to phase coding. They definitely fall under the category of population code. Single place cells are imprecise in defining the position, while the spatio-temporal voting of the neuronal ensemble gives better
results. In addition, the spatial response of a single neuron can't be seen as the abstract representation of 2D (3D for bats) geometry. There are other networks that respond too and are in phase synchrony (phase locking – DOI:
<span style="color: rgb(0, 113, 188);"><a href="https://doi.org/10.1126/sciadv.abm6081" target="_blank" id="OWAe1b81c71-f5db-f551-7574-e00f52528888" class="id-link OWAAutoLink" rel="noopener" data-ga-category="full_text" data-ga-action="DOI" style="color: rgb(0, 113, 188); text-decoration: none; margin: 0px;">10.1126/sciadv.abm6081</a></span>)
offering additional metric and topology plus geometrical information for the forecasting capabilities of place cells enhancing further the relevance and the meaning of population coding. </div>
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Furthermore, the existence of the representation of 2D (3D) geometry may not involve conscious thinking in terms of the belonging concepts. They may grant the precise decision about just-in-time action and nothing else. Note that conscious knowledge of actions
in humans are delayed by about 200 msec relative to the neuronal signals launched by the motor cortex to initiate those actions.</div>
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In turn, “meaning” does not seem to fly in the face of population coding.</div>
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Best,</div>
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Andras Lorincz<br>
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Fellow of the European Association for Artificial Intelligence</div>
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Department of Artificial Intelligence</div>
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Faculty of Informatics<br>
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Eotvos Lorand University<br>
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Budapest, Hungary </div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Connectionists <connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu> on behalf of Asim Roy <ASIM.ROY@asu.edu><br>
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<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 16, 2024 10:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Weng, Juyang <weng@msu.edu>; Gabriele Scheler <gscheler@gmail.com>; connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu <connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: Ensemble computing</div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;">Some have difficulty accepting findings that were rewarded with Nobel prizes. These scientists were rewarded for finding “meaning” in the activations of single neurons. That flies in the face of population coding. And, in science,
you can repeat these experiments and verify these findings again and again. Some see lots of activations and think that must be population coding.</span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Asim Roy</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Professor, Information Systems</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Arizona State University</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: blue;"><u><a href="https://search.asu.edu/profile/9973" id="OWAeffa80ef-496e-e7d5-b50b-56d5289c0430" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Asim
Roy | ASU Search</a></u></span></p>
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<span style="color: blue;"><u><a href="https://lifeboat.com/ex/bios.asim.roy" id="OWA310c4eef-a984-55d5-818d-9afb29ebaf53" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Lifeboat Foundation Bios: Professor
Asim Roy</a></u></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><b>From:</b> Connectionists <connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Weng, Juyang<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 15, 2024 7:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Gabriele Scheler <gscheler@gmail.com>; connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: Ensemble computing</span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;">Dear Gabriele Scheler,</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;"> You wrote, "Each symbol stands for one pattern". This is an invalid statement, meaningless in mathematics and computer science. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;"> (1) I suggest that you review the term One-to-One correspondence required for symbolic representations in discrete mathematics and computer science (like
Turing machines). </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;"> (2) Counter Example 1: While my brain senses your face, many neurons in my brain will fire. Do they stand for the same pattern (your face)? This means
one-to-many mapping, defeating the one-to-one correspondence in (1). </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;"> (3) Counter Example 2: While my brain senses your face at different viewing angles, distances, and lighting conditionss, my motor neurons will fire to produce
Gabriele Scheler. Any of motor neurons stand for many patterns of your face, not only "one pattern". This means many-to-one mapping, defeating the one-to-one correspondence in (1). </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;"> With the above proof, "Each symbol stands for one pattern" is meaningless in mathematics and computer science.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;"> Best regards,</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;">-John Weng</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;">On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 9:46</span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><span style="color: black;">PM Gabriele Scheler <</span><span style="color: blue;"><u><a href="mailto:gscheler@gmail.com" id="OWAdb02c4c3-8afe-4480-89e7-c1ca4a1cd80c" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">gscheler@gmail.com</a></u></span><span style="color: black;">>
wrote:</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;">Oh st simpkicissismus.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;">Symbolic neurons have connections with each other. Each symbol stands for one pattern. They also have connections with their feature patterns. But we compute
with the symbolic neurons alone. There are no examples given for that.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;">So by computing with symbolic neurons we can use exact reasoning. But when we want to know the meaning of a symbol we can then turn to their features. The clever
part - since you have trouble reading - is that we can use only the symbolic neurons, we do not ha e to stimulate them in a way that their feature parts become active. In that case, 1 symbol, 1 neuron. </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;"><b>From:</b> Connectionists <</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: blue;"><u><a href="mailto:connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu" id="OWAddf1c54f-dc21-2421-f2b1-5d0b6912f310" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a></u></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;">>
on behalf of Gabriele Scheler <</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: blue;"><u><a href="mailto:gscheler@gmail.com" id="OWA8899c558-27e0-0cd7-e3fe-bc2698658adc" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">gscheler@gmail.com</a></u></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;">><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 10, 2024 8:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: blue;"><u><a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu" id="OWA1b94d5d5-b9f9-a2ab-1832-c5b7a4d88085" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a></u></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;"> <</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: blue;"><u><a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu" id="OWAa55951ab-1081-30cc-178c-ddc49a2de042" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a></u></span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;">><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Connectionists: Ensemble computing</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </p>
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<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">This paper may be relevant to the discussion on symbolic computing in the brain. </p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: blue;"><u><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.12.22.573036v2__;!!HXCxUKc!3XvVBOS7Ewzj9hEc7LIS4jJ1KaOBIEg96-dgQQoFBKgSXwmbWIv9bbBw_q5aEBIrkXofN97mq1r_Tw$" id="OWA029cc160-ab63-cb98-74e3-81ff2f17ca57" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.12.22.573036v2</a></u></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">It leverages ideas about ensembles in the brain and outlines a basic scheme for symbolic abstraction .</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Gabriele</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">--</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Dr. Gabriele Scheler<br>
Carl Correns Foundation for Mathematical Biology</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">1030 Judson Dr<br>
Mountain View, CA 94040 </p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="color: blue;"><u><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.theoretical-biology.org__;!!HXCxUKc!3XvVBOS7Ewzj9hEc7LIS4jJ1KaOBIEg96-dgQQoFBKgSXwmbWIv9bbBw_q5aEBIrkXofN95zer6I-w$" id="OWA9c2e5c4c-e317-f140-d533-72148e085df5" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">https://www.theoretical-biology.org</a></u></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Please re-send an email if I fail to respond.</p>
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