<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<style type="text/css" style="display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} </style>
</head>
<body dir="ltr">
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Dear Asim,</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
You wrote, "It is a one-to-one correspondence. That’s what the findings are – from place cells to line orientation cells to concept cells. There is no claim that every neuron in the brain are of that type."</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
The following paper, like other experimental neuroscience papers we may find, did not show one-to-one correspondence. They only showed that if I show this pattern on the screen, multiple neurons in a relatively small V1 area will fire. Mutilple cells
respond to the same visual stimulus!</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
T. N. Wiesel and D. H. Hubel, "Ordered arrangement of orientation columns in monkeys lacking visual experience", Journal of Comparative Neurology, vol.158, pp. 307-318, 1974. (Nobel Prize work?)</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Furthermore, such experiments do not represent any symbolic meanings, only some result of neuronal competition. No neurons in the brain have a one-to-one correspondence to a symbolic meaning (e.g., "60-degree line orientation" or "Asim").</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
If we do not have a closed-skull model about the emergence of a brain, we do not say "naturally" like "God arranged everything in the world".</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Best regards,</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
-John Weng</div>
<div id="appendonsend"></div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Asim Roy <ASIM.ROY@asu.edu><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 7, 2024 4:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Weng, Juyang <weng@msu.edu>; Stephen José Hanson <jose@rubic.rutgers.edu>; Gary Marcus <gary.marcus@nyu.edu><br>
<b>Cc:</b> connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu <connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Connectionists: short Op-ed to address AI problems</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<style>
<!--
@font-face
{font-family:Helvetica}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math"}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri}
@font-face
{font-family:Aptos}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma}
p.x_MsoNormal, li.x_MsoNormal, div.x_MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif}
a:link, span.x_MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline}
pre
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New"}
span.x_HTMLPreformattedChar
{font-family:Consolas}
p.x_xmsonormal, li.x_xmsonormal, div.x_xmsonormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif}
p.x_xxmsonormal, li.x_xxmsonormal, div.x_xxmsonormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif}
span.x_EmailStyle29
{font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;
color:windowtext}
.x_MsoChpDefault
{font-size:10.0pt}
@page WordSection1
{margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in}
div.x_WordSection1
{}
ol
{margin-bottom:0in}
ul
{margin-bottom:0in}
-->
</style>
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div class="x_WordSection1">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear John,</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">It is a one-to-one correspondence. That’s what the findings are – from place cells to line orientation cells to concept cells. There is no claim that every neuron in the brain are of that type.
</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Best,</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Asim</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Weng, Juyang <weng@msu.edu>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 7, 2024 1:06 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Asim Roy <ASIM.ROY@asu.edu>; Stephen José Hanson <jose@rubic.rutgers.edu>; Gary Marcus <gary.marcus@nyu.edu><br>
<b>Cc:</b> connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: short Op-ed to address AI problems</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Dear Asim,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> You wrote, That single cell firing in a cat’s brain having “meaning” is not due to “Asim” or “a Government.” These cells with “meaning” develop NATURALLY.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Your statement "single cell firing having meaning" is not mathematically meaningful. The brain is a vector of $10^{14}$ dimension. Each neuron corresponds to a dimension. Each neuron does not have a one-to-one
correspondence with a symbol (like "Asim". Review the definition of one-to-one correspondence. If you do not mean one-to-one correspondence, your statement is not mathematically meaningful.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Best regards,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">-John Weng</span></p>
</div>
<div class="x_MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center">
<hr size="2" width="98%" align="center">
</div>
<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"> Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 6, 2024 11:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Weng, Juyang <<a href="mailto:weng@msu.edu">weng@msu.edu</a>>; Stephen José Hanson <<a href="mailto:jose@rubic.rutgers.edu">jose@rubic.rutgers.edu</a>>; Gary Marcus <<a href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu">gary.marcus@nyu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a> <<a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Connectionists: short Op-ed to address AI problems</span> </p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear John,</span></p>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">There is no “Asim” or “Government” in any brain, human or otherwise. That single cell firing in a cat’s brain having “meaning” is not due to “Asim” or “a Government.” These cells with “meaning” develop
NATURALLY. And that’s what you are missing in your Development Network theory. You have not been able to capture in your systems that side of development. Perhaps time to go back to the drawing board. Symbols follow directly from “single cells having meaning.”</span></p>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">All the best,</span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Asim Roy</span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Professor, Information Systems</span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Arizona State University</span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lifeboat.com_ex_bios.asim.roy&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=wQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ&m=waSKY67JF57IZXg30ysFB_R7OG9zoQwFwxyps6FbTa1Zh5mttxRot_t4N7mn68Pj&s=oDRJmXX22O8NcfqyLjyu4Ajmt8pcHWquTxYjeWahfuw&e=" target="_blank">Lifeboat
Foundation Bios: Professor Asim Roy</a></span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__isearch.asu.edu_profile_9973&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=wQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ&m=waSKY67JF57IZXg30ysFB_R7OG9zoQwFwxyps6FbTa1Zh5mttxRot_t4N7mn68Pj&s=jCesWT7oGgX76_y7PFh4cCIQ-Ife-esGblJyrBiDlro&e=" target="_blank">Asim
Roy | iSearch (asu.edu)</a></span></p>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Weng, Juyang <<a href="mailto:weng@msu.edu">weng@msu.edu</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 6, 2024 8:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>>; Stephen José Hanson <<a href="mailto:jose@rubic.rutgers.edu">jose@rubic.rutgers.edu</a>>; Gary Marcus <<a href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu">gary.marcus@nyu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: short Op-ed to address AI problems</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="color:black">Dear Asim,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> You wrote, "Let’s do one issue at a time. Let’s try symbols first." This approach misleads you to the wrong track.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> Case 1: neuron level symbols (your position).</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> Case 2: area level symbols.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> Case 3: task level symbols.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> They are all dead ends because Asim is the government of the "brain" model.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> For all those Asim knows, it is too expensive to create all symbols for the "brain" model. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> For all those Asim does not know, the model does not know either.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> Deadends! If you continue this "one issue at a time route," you waste too much time in your life. This is because the first issue is wrong to consider. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> Best regards,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><span style="color:black">-John Weng </span></p>
</div>
<div class="x_MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center">
<hr size="1" width="98%" align="center">
</div>
<div id="x_x_divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="x_xmsonormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"> Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 6, 2024 10:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Weng, Juyang <<a href="mailto:weng@msu.edu">weng@msu.edu</a>>; Stephen José Hanson <<a href="mailto:jose@rubic.rutgers.edu">jose@rubic.rutgers.edu</a>>; Gary Marcus <<a href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu">gary.marcus@nyu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a> <<a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Connectionists: short Op-ed to address AI problems</span> </p>
<div>
<p class="x_xmsonormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Dear John,</span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Let’s do one issue at a time. Let’s try symbols first. There is plenty of evidence in neurophysiology that one can associate “meaning” to the activation of certain individual
cells. As far as I know, all of the brain-related Nobel prizes were about finding “meaning” in the activations of certain single neurons. Here I quote from Wikipedia (<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-unit_recording__;!!HXCxUKc!2pFG0g1tPh-88cfwjJImIxJxtBhaOQ1wWf15ZEUkChi5vUb8q_qEXUDZt7bsQ9QjqzSglNkNR1ZZ9A$">Single-unit
recording - Wikipedia</a>):</span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<ul type="disc" style="margin-top:0in">
<li class="x_xxmsonormal" style="color:#202122; background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">1928: One of the earliest accounts of being able to record from the nervous system was by <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Adrian__;!!HXCxUKc!2pFG0g1tPh-88cfwjJImIxJxtBhaOQ1wWf15ZEUkChi5vUb8q_qEXUDZt7bsQ9QjqzSglNnQtx1LXQ$" title="Edgar Adrian"><span style="color:#0645AD">Edgar
Adrian</span></a> in his 1928 publication "The Basis of Sensation". In this, he describes his recordings of electrical discharges in
<u>single nerve fibers</u> using a <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lippmann_electrometer__;!!HXCxUKc!2pFG0g1tPh-88cfwjJImIxJxtBhaOQ1wWf15ZEUkChi5vUb8q_qEXUDZt7bsQ9QjqzSglNn6lQGgzA$" title="Lippmann electrometer"><span style="color:#0645AD">Lippmann
electrometer</span></a>. He won the <span style="background:yellow">Nobel Prize in 1932</span> for his work revealing the function of neurons.<sup><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-unit_recording*cite_note-11__;Iw!!HXCxUKc!2pFG0g1tPh-88cfwjJImIxJxtBhaOQ1wWf15ZEUkChi5vUb8q_qEXUDZt7bsQ9QjqzSglNk6I8LNhA$"><span style="color:#0645AD">[11]</span></a></sup></span></li><li class="x_xxmsonormal" style="color:#202122; background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">1957: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carew_Eccles__;!!HXCxUKc!2pFG0g1tPh-88cfwjJImIxJxtBhaOQ1wWf15ZEUkChi5vUb8q_qEXUDZt7bsQ9QjqzSglNkFV1ULMA$" title="John Carew Eccles"><span style="color:#0645AD">John
Eccles</span></a> used intracellular <u>single-unit recording</u> to study synaptic mechanisms in motoneurons (for which he won the
<span style="background:yellow">Nobel Prize in 1963</span>).</span></li><li class="x_xxmsonormal" style="color:#202122; background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">1959: Studies by <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_H._Hubel__;!!HXCxUKc!2pFG0g1tPh-88cfwjJImIxJxtBhaOQ1wWf15ZEUkChi5vUb8q_qEXUDZt7bsQ9QjqzSglNkJaa_aew$" title="David H. Hubel"><span style="color:#0645AD">David
H. Hubel</span></a> and <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsten_Wiesel__;!!HXCxUKc!2pFG0g1tPh-88cfwjJImIxJxtBhaOQ1wWf15ZEUkChi5vUb8q_qEXUDZt7bsQ9QjqzSglNndrzwVDg$" title="Torsten Wiesel"><span style="color:#0645AD">Torsten
Wiesel</span></a>. They used <u>single neuron recordings</u> to map the visual cortex in unanesthesized, unrestrained cats using tungsten electrodes. This work won them the
<span style="background:yellow">Nobel Prize in 1981</span> for information processing in the visual system.</span></li></ul>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<ul type="disc" style="margin-top:0in">
<li class="x_xxmsonormal" style="color:#202122; background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">And the work of Mosers and O’Keefe on grid and place cells that won them the Nobel:
<span style="background:yellow"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2014/press-release/__;!!HXCxUKc!2pFG0g1tPh-88cfwjJImIxJxtBhaOQ1wWf15ZEUkChi5vUb8q_qEXUDZt7bsQ9QjqzSglNm67pI7iQ$">The 2014 Nobel Prize in Physiology
or Medicine - Press release</a>. </span>Here’s a quote about the work on place cells:</span></li></ul>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#111111; background:white"> </span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#111111; background:white">“</span><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#111111; background:yellow">Most neuroscientists once
doubted that brain activity could be linked with behaviour, but in the late 1960s, <strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">O</span></strong>’Keefe began to record signals from individual neurons in the brains of rats moving freely in a box.
He put electrodes in the hippocampus and was surprised to find that <u>individual cells fired</u> when the rats moved to particular spots</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#111111; background:yellow">.”</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.nature.com/articles/514153a*:*:text=Most*20neuroscientists*20once*20doubted*20that*20brain*20activity*20could,fired*20when*20the*20rats*20moved*20to*20particular*20spots.__;I34lJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!HXCxUKc!2pFG0g1tPh-88cfwjJImIxJxtBhaOQ1wWf15ZEUkChi5vUb8q_qEXUDZt7bsQ9QjqzSglNnqimHsFw$">
Nobel prize for decoding brain’s sense of place | Nature</a></span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">And then the findings about concept cells (Jennifer Aniston cells), which are single cell recordings. Here’s from
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.frontiersin.org/journals/neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnins.2020.00059/full*B6__;Iw!!HXCxUKc!2pFG0g1tPh-88cfwjJImIxJxtBhaOQ1wWf15ZEUkChi5vUb8q_qEXUDZt7bsQ9QjqzSglNlbw-6x9Q$">
<span style="background:#F7F7F7">Reddy and Thorpe (2014)</span></a><span style="color:#282828; background:#F7F7F7">: “</span><span style="color:#282828; background:yellow">concept cells have “<strong><i><u><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">meaning</span></u></i></strong> of
a given stimulus in a manner that is <strong><i><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">invariant</span></i></strong> to different representations of that stimulus.”</span></span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">We all try to generalize from data, right. If you examine these findings, the most important feature is that they all found “meaning” in single cell activations. So the
most fundamental question for you is: <span style="color:black; background:lime">
Do you accept these findings and the general conclusion that single cell activations can have meaning</span>? Again, beware that, beyond winning Nobel prizes, much work in neuroscience and other fields follows from these findings.</span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">All the best,</span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Asim Roy</span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Professor, Information Systems</span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Arizona State University</span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lifeboat.com_ex_bios.asim.roy&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=wQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ&m=waSKY67JF57IZXg30ysFB_R7OG9zoQwFwxyps6FbTa1Zh5mttxRot_t4N7mn68Pj&s=oDRJmXX22O8NcfqyLjyu4Ajmt8pcHWquTxYjeWahfuw&e=" target="_blank">Lifeboat
Foundation Bios: Professor Asim Roy</a></span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__isearch.asu.edu_profile_9973&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=wQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ&m=waSKY67JF57IZXg30ysFB_R7OG9zoQwFwxyps6FbTa1Zh5mttxRot_t4N7mn68Pj&s=jCesWT7oGgX76_y7PFh4cCIQ-Ife-esGblJyrBiDlro&e=" target="_blank">Asim
Roy | iSearch (asu.edu)</a></span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Weng, Juyang <<a href="mailto:weng@msu.edu">weng@msu.edu</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 6, 2024 1:09 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>>; Stephen José Hanson <<a href="mailto:jose@rubic.rutgers.edu">jose@rubic.rutgers.edu</a>>; Gary Marcus <<a href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu">gary.marcus@nyu.edu</a>>; Weng, Juyang
<<a href="mailto:weng@msu.edu">weng@msu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: short Op-ed to address AI problems</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black">Dear Asim,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> You wrote, "We are doing neurosymbolic with image processing – the symbolic stuff on top of a DL model. It also brings in the explanation side." </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> Not only DL is misconduct, but symbols are another devil. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> In my IJCNN 2022 paper, </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.cse.msu.edu/*weng/research/20M-IJCNN2022rvsd-cite.pdf__;fg!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!YZcFaLmNraAEJLpxRQGKzKZTVt_nn3J9i52_xG7zhEgKn6ZASf_q59sOFVdSPylt7_NueMymM_EI7GNl$">http://www.cse.msu.edu/~weng/research/20M-IJCNN2022rvsd-cite.pdf</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> I proved "symbol-free" as one of the 20 million-dollar problems for us to understand human brains.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> The definition of symbols requires a government, but government-free is one of the 20 million-dollar problems for us to understand human brains.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> Let us consider three cases:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> Case 1: If a human designs symbols within a network (e.g., LSTM) and assigns the symbols to some individual neurons (e.g., task-specific gates) of the network, this human is a government within the network
since he is task-aware. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> Case 2: If a human designs symbols within a network and assigns roles to blocks in a functional block diagram, e.g., [Starzyk10], this human is a government within the network. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> Case 3: In the symbolic AI school, a human programmer designs symbolic representations for a task that is assigned to a computer program or network. This human is a government within the symbolic AI system
since he is task-aware. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> All the 3 cases do not solve the government-free problem.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> I have attached an image that further explains the symbol problem in the same paper.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> Let me know if you still do not agree that the brain must be free from symbols after you read the entire paper.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> By the way, I am surprised that as a mathematician, you still do not understand the Post-Selection misconduct in DL that I raised to you earlier. Please use your own words to explain Post-Selection and
why you can handle explanation using Post-Selection misconduct.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> Best regards,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black">-John Weng</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="x_MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center">
<hr size="1" width="98%" align="center">
</div>
<div id="x_x_x_divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"> Connectionists <<a href="mailto:connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>>
on behalf of Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stephen José Hanson <<a href="mailto:jose@rubic.rutgers.edu">jose@rubic.rutgers.edu</a>>; Gary Marcus <<a href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu">gary.marcus@nyu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a> <<a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: short Op-ed to address AI problems</span> </p>
<div>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black">Dear Stephen,</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black"> </span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black">We are doing neurosymbolic with image processing – the symbolic stuff on top of a DL model. It also brings in the explanation side. The results are astounding. We get better performance
than a pure DL model. And exploring applications with defense agencies. They are impressed with the results we have so far. So, neurosymbolic is definitely the way forward.</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black"> </span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black">Best,</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black">Asim Roy</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black">Professor, Information Systems</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black">Arizona State University</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><u><span style="color:blue"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/search.asu.edu/profile/9973__;!!HXCxUKc!1ZzSj6Uim5wWu5W-JiBNqp_Cig3tUkK5DgMhDEBYnERP1f-pOAReghJiHzEk3hEHKL31roB_8qivsA$">Asim Roy | ASU Search</a></span></u></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><u><span style="color:blue"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lifeboat.com/ex/bios.asim.roy__;!!HXCxUKc!1ZzSj6Uim5wWu5W-JiBNqp_Cig3tUkK5DgMhDEBYnERP1f-pOAReghJiHzEk3hEHKL31roAnhJU86A$">Lifeboat Foundation Bios: Professor
Asim Roy</a></span></u></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black"> </span></p>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"> Connectionists <<a href="mailto:connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen José Hanson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:06 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Gary Marcus <<a href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu">gary.marcus@nyu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: short Op-ed to address AI problems</span></p>
</div>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Dear Flabbergasted:</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Thankyou, I endeavor to provide short but useful commentary that could be considered a "work of art". Graci!</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Now either my memory is failing since 2017(not impossible), or you are smoothing over a time series of claims that are actually like a seesaw.</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">I think if we just rewind some of the connectionist comments; it would be clear, in fact, for example, you had a long series of comments with Geoff that seemed to indicate you were being misreprented as
well. Your complaints have always be around the fact that DL-AI has false alarms (and to be fair other problems) And sometimes pretty odd-ones. LLMs human and non-human errors are even more interesting. The fact that they seem to grow circuits in the
attention-heads is gobsmacking! I thought then and think now you are complaining about peas under a very thick mattress (oh-oh, metaphors now- I may have opened pandora's box.)</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">But I will go look at the budding NeuroSymbolic paper you mentioned, but I have my doubts that the statistical bias is equivalent with the architectually simplistic LLMs. Nonetheless, I have not read
it.</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">I will also make a coarse timeline of your comments since 2017, but anyone out there that would like to help, greatly appreciated!</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Best,</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Stephen</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">On 6/5/24 8:41 AM, Gary Marcus wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Wow, Stephen, you have outdone yourself. This note is a startling mixture of rude, condescending, inaccurate, and uninformed. A work of art! </span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">To correct four misunderstandings:</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">1. Yes, my essay was written before LLMs were popular (though around the time Transformers were proposed as it happens). It was however
<i>precisely</i> “ a moonshot idea, that doesn't involve leaving the blackbox in the hands of corporate types who value profits over knowledge.” Please read what I wrote. It’s one page, linked below, and you obviously couldn’t be bothered,. (Parenthetically,
I was one of the first people to warn that OpenAI was likely to be problematic, and have done so repeatedly at my Substack.)</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">2. My argument throughout (back to 2012, in the New Yorker, 2018 in my Deep Learning: A Critical Appraisal, etc) has been that deep learning has some role but cannot solve all things, and that it would
be not reliable on its own. In 2019 onwards I emphasized many of the social problems that arise from relying on such unreliable architectures. I have never wavered from any of that. (Again, please read my work before so grossly distorting it.) Unreliable systems
that are blind to truth and values can cause harm (bias), be exploited (to create disinformation), etc. There is absolutely no contradiction there, as I have explained numerous times in my writings.</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">3. It’s truly rude to dismiss an entire field as “flotsam and jetsam”, and you obviously aren’t following the neurosymbolic literature, e.g., you must have missed DeepMind’s neurosymbolic AlphaGeometry
paper, in Nature, with its state of the art results, beating pure neural nets.</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">4. Again, nothing has changed about my view; your last remark is gratuitous and based on a misunderstanding.</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Truly flabbergasted,</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Gary</span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt; background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">On Jun 5, 2024, at 05:18, Stephen José Hanson
</span><u><span style="color:blue"><a href="mailto:jose@rubic.rutgers.edu"><jose@rubic.rutgers.edu></a></span></u><span style="color:black"> wrote:</span></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Gary, this was before the LLM discovery. Pierre is proposing a moonshot idea, that doesn't involve leaving the blackbox in the hands of corporate types who value profits over knowledge. OPENAI seems
to be flailing and having serious safety and security issues. It certainly could be recipe for diaster.</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Frankly your views have been all over the place. DL doesn't work, DL could work but should be merged with the useless flotsam and jetsam from GOFAI over the last 50 years, and now they are too dangerous
because they work but they are unreliable, like most humans.</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Its hard to know what views of yours to take seriously as they seem change so rapidly. </span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Cheers</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Stephen</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">On 6/4/24 9:53 AM, Gary Marcus wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">I would just point out that I first made this suggestion [CERN for AI] in the New York Times in 2017, and several others have since. There is some effort ongoing to try to make it happen, if you search
you will see.</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<table class="x_MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="300" style="width:225.0pt; background:#E9E9EB; border-collapse:collapse; border-spacing:0px; box-sizing:border-box">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<p align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black"><30gray-facebookJumbo.jpg></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<table class="x_MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="300" style="width:225.0pt; background:#E9E9EB; border-collapse:collapse; border-spacing:0px; box-sizing:border-box">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="padding:6.0pt 0in 6.0pt 0in">
<div style="margin-left:12.0pt; margin-right:12.0pt; max-width:100%">
<p><u><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:black"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nytimes.com_2017_07_29_opinion_sunday_artificial-2Dintelligence-2Dis-2Dstuck-2Dheres-2Dhow-2Dto-2Dmove-2Dit-2Dforward.html-3Funlocked-5Farticle-5Fcode-3D1.xE0.mcIz.lT-5FK7BZdonGJ-26smid-3Dnytcore-2Dios-2Dshare-26referringSource-3DarticleShare-26u2g-3Di-26sgrp-3Dc-2Dcb&d=DwMGaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=wQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ&m=fwBsbQ5xjEJFDg3c0iXuOBcr84mxEGxR0cEG4-hstVM8dJNyq3HVvpCACElUGWT2&s=TGZDkK1TsB_rNyjmal5jG1694upjB2JDhtj3UOe4Cws&e="><span style="color:black">Opinion
| Artificial Intelligence Is Stuck. Here’s How to Move It Forward. (Gift Article)</span></a></span></u></p>
<p><u><span style="font-size:8.5pt; font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; color:#A2A2A9"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nytimes.com_2017_07_29_opinion_sunday_artificial-2Dintelligence-2Dis-2Dstuck-2Dheres-2Dhow-2Dto-2Dmove-2Dit-2Dforward.html-3Funlocked-5Farticle-5Fcode-3D1.xE0.mcIz.lT-5FK7BZdonGJ-26smid-3Dnytcore-2Dios-2Dshare-26referringSource-3DarticleShare-26u2g-3Di-26sgrp-3Dc-2Dcb&d=DwMGaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=wQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ&m=fwBsbQ5xjEJFDg3c0iXuOBcr84mxEGxR0cEG4-hstVM8dJNyq3HVvpCACElUGWT2&s=TGZDkK1TsB_rNyjmal5jG1694upjB2JDhtj3UOe4Cws&e="><span style="color:#A2A2A9">nytimes.com</span></a></span></u></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt; background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">On Jun 3, 2024, at 22:58, Baldi,Pierre
</span><u><span style="color:blue"><a href="mailto:pfbaldi@ics.uci.edu"><pfbaldi@ics.uci.edu></a></span></u><span style="color:black"> wrote:</span></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt; background:#EDEAC4"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black"></span><span style="color:black"><br>
I would appreciate feedback from this group,especially dissenting feedback, on the attached Op-ed. You can send it to my personal email which you can find on my university web site if you prefer. The basic idea is simple:<br>
<br>
IF for scientific, security, or other societal reasons we want academics to develop and study the most advanced forms of AI, I can see only one solution: create a national or international effort around the largest data/computing center on Earth with a CERN-like
structure comprising permanent staff, and 1000s of affiliated academic laboratories. There are many obstacles, but none is completely insurmountable if we wanted to.<br>
<br>
Thank you.<br>
<br>
Pierre<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black"><AI-CERN-Baldi2024FF.pdf></span></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div>
<pre style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">-- </span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Stephen José Hanson</span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Professor of Psychology</span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Director of RUBIC</span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Member of Exc Comm RUCCS</span></pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div>
<pre style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">-- </span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Stephen José Hanson</span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Professor of Psychology</span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Director of RUBIC</span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre style="background:#EDEAC4"><span style="color:black">Member of Exc Comm RUCCS</span></pre>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>