<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<style type="text/css" style="display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} </style>
</head>
<body dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Dear Asim,</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
You wrote, "We are doing neurosymbolic with image processing – the symbolic stuff on top of a DL model. It also brings in the explanation side." </div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Not only DL is misconduct, but symbols are another devil. </div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
In my IJCNN 2022 paper, </div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<a href="http://www.cse.msu.edu/~weng/research/20M-IJCNN2022rvsd-cite.pdf" id="OWA39973688-fc6e-65c1-c353-fac3ed8f0a0b" class="OWAAutoLink">http://www.cse.msu.edu/~weng/research/20M-IJCNN2022rvsd-cite.pdf</a></div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
I proved "symbol-free" as one of the 20 million-dollar problems for us to understand human brains.</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
The definition of symbols requires a government, but government-free is one of the 20 million-dollar problems for us to understand human brains.</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Let us consider three cases:</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Case 1: If a human designs symbols within a network (e.g., LSTM) and assigns the symbols to some individual neurons (e.g., task-specific gates) of the network, this human is a government within the network since he is task-aware. </div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Case 2: If a human designs symbols within a network and assigns roles to blocks in a functional block diagram, e.g., [Starzyk10], this human is a government within the network. </div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Case 3: In the symbolic AI school, a human programmer designs symbolic representations for a task that is assigned to a computer program or network. This human is a government within the symbolic AI system since he is task-aware. </div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
All the 3 cases do not solve the government-free problem.</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
I have attached an image that further explains the symbol problem in the same paper.</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Let me know if you still do not agree that the brain must be free from symbols after you read the entire paper.</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
By the way, I am surprised that as a mathematician, you still do not understand the Post-Selection misconduct in DL that I raised to you earlier. Please use your own words to explain Post-Selection and why you can handle explanation using Post-Selection
misconduct.</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Best regards,</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
-John Weng</div>
<div id="appendonsend"></div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<hr style="display: inline-block; width: 98%;">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Connectionists <connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu> on behalf of Asim Roy <ASIM.ROY@asu.edu><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stephen José Hanson <jose@rubic.rutgers.edu>; Gary Marcus <gary.marcus@nyu.edu><br>
<b>Cc:</b> connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu <connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: short Op-ed to address AI problems</span>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="background-color: rgb(237, 234, 196);">
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Dear Stephen,</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">We are doing neurosymbolic with image processing – the symbolic stuff on top of a DL model. It also brings in the explanation side. The results are astounding. We get better performance than a pure DL model.
And exploring applications with defense agencies. They are impressed with the results we have so far. So, neurosymbolic is definitely the way forward.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Best,</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Asim Roy</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Professor, Information Systems</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Arizona State University</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<span style="color: blue;"><u><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://search.asu.edu/profile/9973__;!!HXCxUKc!1ZzSj6Uim5wWu5W-JiBNqp_Cig3tUkK5DgMhDEBYnERP1f-pOAReghJiHzEk3hEHKL31roB_8qivsA$" id="OWA3d0467d9-d726-7f71-febb-23a3fbfe3f65" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Asim
Roy | ASU Search</a></u></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<span style="color: blue;"><u><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lifeboat.com/ex/bios.asim.roy__;!!HXCxUKc!1ZzSj6Uim5wWu5W-JiBNqp_Cig3tUkK5DgMhDEBYnERP1f-pOAReghJiHzEk3hEHKL31roAnhJU86A$" id="OWA10fcf934-365b-7ce0-19d8-ce6553fe4507" class="OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Lifeboat
Foundation Bios: Professor Asim Roy</a></u></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> </span></p>
<div style="padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-top: 1pt solid rgb(225, 225, 225);">
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Connectionists <connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephen José Hanson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:06 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Gary Marcus <gary.marcus@nyu.edu><br>
<b>Cc:</b> connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: short Op-ed to address AI problems</span></p>
</div>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
</p>
<p>Dear Flabbergasted:</p>
<p>Thankyou, I endeavor to provide short but useful commentary that could be considered a "work of art". Graci!</p>
<p>Now either my memory is failing since 2017(not impossible), or you are smoothing over a time series of claims that are actually like a seesaw.</p>
<p>I think if we just rewind some of the connectionist comments; it would be clear, in fact, for example, you had a long series of comments with Geoff that seemed to indicate you were being misreprented as well. Your complaints have always be around the fact
that DL-AI has false alarms (and to be fair other problems) And sometimes pretty odd-ones. LLMs human and non-human errors are even more interesting. The fact that they seem to grow circuits in the attention-heads is gobsmacking! I thought then and think
now you are complaining about peas under a very thick mattress (oh-oh, metaphors now- I may have opened pandora's box.)</p>
<p>But I will go look at the budding NeuroSymbolic paper you mentioned, but I have my doubts that the statistical bias is equivalent with the architectually simplistic LLMs. Nonetheless, I have not read it.</p>
<p>I will also make a coarse timeline of your comments since 2017, but anyone out there that would like to help, greatly appreciated!</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Stephen</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
On 6/5/24 8:41 AM, Gary Marcus wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
Wow, Stephen, you have outdone yourself. This note is a startling mixture of rude, condescending, inaccurate, and uninformed. A work of art! </p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
To correct four misunderstandings:</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
1. Yes, my essay was written before LLMs were popular (though around the time Transformers were proposed as it happens). It was however
<i>precisely</i> “ a moonshot idea, that doesn't involve leaving the blackbox in the hands of corporate types who value profits over knowledge.” Please read what I wrote. It’s one page, linked below, and you obviously couldn’t be bothered,. (Parenthetically,
I was one of the first people to warn that OpenAI was likely to be problematic, and have done so repeatedly at my Substack.)</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
2. My argument throughout (back to 2012, in the New Yorker, 2018 in my Deep Learning: A Critical Appraisal, etc) has been that deep learning has some role but cannot solve all things, and that it would be not reliable on its own. In 2019 onwards I emphasized
many of the social problems that arise from relying on such unreliable architectures. I have never wavered from any of that. (Again, please read my work before so grossly distorting it.) Unreliable systems that are blind to truth and values can cause harm
(bias), be exploited (to create disinformation), etc. There is absolutely no contradiction there, as I have explained numerous times in my writings.</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
3. It’s truly rude to dismiss an entire field as “flotsam and jetsam”, and you obviously aren’t following the neurosymbolic literature, e.g., you must have missed DeepMind’s neurosymbolic AlphaGeometry paper, in Nature, with its state of the art results, beating
pure neural nets.</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
4. Again, nothing has changed about my view; your last remark is gratuitous and based on a misunderstanding.</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
Truly flabbergasted,</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
Gary</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
On Jun 5, 2024, at 05:18, Stephen José Hanson <span style="color: blue;"><u><a href="mailto:jose@rubic.rutgers.edu" id="OWAd21e25e0-3472-d285-6bda-0db534befaf5" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><jose@rubic.rutgers.edu></a></u></span> wrote:</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"></span></p>
<p>Gary, this was before the LLM discovery. Pierre is proposing a moonshot idea, that doesn't involve leaving the blackbox in the hands of corporate types who value profits over knowledge. OPENAI seems to be flailing and having serious safety and security
issues. It certainly could be recipe for diaster.</p>
<p>Frankly your views have been all over the place. DL doesn't work, DL could work but should be merged with the useless flotsam and jetsam from GOFAI over the last 50 years, and now they are too dangerous because they work but they are unreliable, like most
humans.</p>
<p>Its hard to know what views of yours to take seriously as they seem change so rapidly. </p>
<p>Cheers</p>
<p>Stephen</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
On 6/4/24 9:53 AM, Gary Marcus wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
I would just point out that I first made this suggestion [CERN for AI] in the New York Times in 2017, and several others have since. There is some effort ongoing to try to make it happen, if you search you will see.</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
</p>
<table style="background-color: rgb(233, 233, 235); width: 225pt; border-collapse: collapse; border-spacing: 0px; box-sizing: border-box;">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="padding: 0in;">
<p align="center" style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><30gray-facebookJumbo.jpg></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding: 0in;">
<table style="background-color: rgb(233, 233, 235); width: 225pt; border-collapse: collapse; border-spacing: 0px; box-sizing: border-box;">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="background-color: rgb(233, 233, 235); padding: 6pt 0in;">
<div style="margin-right: 12pt; margin-left: 12pt; max-width: 100%;">
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;"><u><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nytimes.com_2017_07_29_opinion_sunday_artificial-2Dintelligence-2Dis-2Dstuck-2Dheres-2Dhow-2Dto-2Dmove-2Dit-2Dforward.html-3Funlocked-5Farticle-5Fcode-3D1.xE0.mcIz.lT-5FK7BZdonGJ-26smid-3Dnytcore-2Dios-2Dshare-26referringSource-3DarticleShare-26u2g-3Di-26sgrp-3Dc-2Dcb&d=DwMGaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=wQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ&m=fwBsbQ5xjEJFDg3c0iXuOBcr84mxEGxR0cEG4-hstVM8dJNyq3HVvpCACElUGWT2&s=TGZDkK1TsB_rNyjmal5jG1694upjB2JDhtj3UOe4Cws&e=" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: black; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" id="OWA9726fa03-2c5d-c22a-1015-87851fbcbadc" class="OWAAutoLink">Opinion
| Artificial Intelligence Is Stuck. Here’s How to Move It Forward. (Gift Article)</a></u></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; color: rgb(162, 162, 169);"><u><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nytimes.com_2017_07_29_opinion_sunday_artificial-2Dintelligence-2Dis-2Dstuck-2Dheres-2Dhow-2Dto-2Dmove-2Dit-2Dforward.html-3Funlocked-5Farticle-5Fcode-3D1.xE0.mcIz.lT-5FK7BZdonGJ-26smid-3Dnytcore-2Dios-2Dshare-26referringSource-3DarticleShare-26u2g-3Di-26sgrp-3Dc-2Dcb&d=DwMGaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=wQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ&m=fwBsbQ5xjEJFDg3c0iXuOBcr84mxEGxR0cEG4-hstVM8dJNyq3HVvpCACElUGWT2&s=TGZDkK1TsB_rNyjmal5jG1694upjB2JDhtj3UOe4Cws&e=" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="color: rgb(162, 162, 169); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" id="OWA638504a1-09b3-d5ed-5d8d-01502dd1a75e" class="OWAAutoLink">nytimes.com</a></u></span></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
On Jun 3, 2024, at 22:58, Baldi,Pierre <span style="color: blue;"><u><a href="mailto:pfbaldi@ics.uci.edu" id="OWA30dc54c0-4a84-8753-1d24-1f893531fe9f" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: blue; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><pfbaldi@ics.uci.edu></a></u></span> wrote:</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"></span><br>
I would appreciate feedback from this group,especially dissenting feedback, on the attached Op-ed. You can send it to my personal email which you can find on my university web site if you prefer. The basic idea is simple:<br>
<br>
IF for scientific, security, or other societal reasons we want academics to develop and study the most advanced forms of AI, I can see only one solution: create a national or international effort around the largest data/computing center on Earth with a CERN-like
structure comprising permanent staff, and 1000s of affiliated academic laboratories. There are many obstacles, but none is completely insurmountable if we wanted to.<br>
<br>
Thank you.<br>
<br>
Pierre<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black;">
<AI-CERN-Baldi2024FF.pdf></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre style="margin: 0in;"><div style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">-- </div></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in;"><div style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Stephen José Hanson</div></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in;"><div style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Professor of Psychology</div></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in;"><div style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Director of RUBIC</div></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in;"><div style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Member of Exc Comm RUCCS</div></pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre style="margin: 0in;"><div style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">-- </div></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in;"><div style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Stephen José Hanson</div></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in;"><div style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Professor of Psychology</div></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in;"><div style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Director of RUBIC</div></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in;"><div style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Member of Exc Comm RUCCS</div></pre>
</div>
</body>
</html>