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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Both Reddy and Thorpe were associated with the Christof Koch-Itzhak Fried team at Caltech-UCLA. The following paper summarizes well the findings of that group.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:0%;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#656263">Reddy and Thorpe</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#231F20"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:0%;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#656263">(2014)
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#231F20">also define concepts cells as “invariant, multimodal.”</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#656263"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:0%;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#231F20">Thus, the fundamental characterization of these two concepts<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:0%;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#231F20">is identical. “Multimodal invariance” implies associative<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:0%;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#231F20">learning across modalities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:0%;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#231F20">The claim by Barwich tha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:0%;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#656263">Reddy and Thorpe</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#231F20"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:0%;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#656263">(2014)
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#231F20">also define concepts cells as “invariant, multimodal.”</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#656263"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:0%;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#231F20">Thus, the fundamental characterization of these two concepts<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:0%;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#231F20">is identical. “Multimodal invariance” implies associative<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:0%;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#231F20">learning across modalities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:0%;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#231F20">The claim by Barwich tha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#282828;background:#F7F7F7">Reddy, L., and Thorpe, S. J. (2014). Concept cells through associative learning of high-level representations. <i>Neuron</i> 84, 248–251. doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2014.10.004<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#282828;background:#F7F7F7"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#282828;background:#F7F7F7">Here are some quotes on their findings from my commentary:
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnins.2020.00059/full">Frontiers | Commentary: The Value of Failure in Science: The Story of Grandmother Cells in Neuroscience (frontiersin.org)</a><span style="color:#282828;background:#F7F7F7"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#282828;background:#F7F7F7"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:12.0pt;text-indent:-12.0pt;background:#F7F7F7">
<i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#282828">“If a neuron's activity has “meaning and interpretation,” it cannot be part of sparse population coding:<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:12.0pt;background:#F7F7F7"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#282828">Sparse coding is a form of population coding that uses a limited set of neurons. By definition, in population coding, one cannot assign “meaning
and interpretation” to the activity of a single neuron. <a href="https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnins.2020.00059/full#B6">Reddy and Thorpe (2014)</a> state that concept cells have “<b><span style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">meaning</span></b><span style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow"> of
a given stimulus in a manner that is <b>invariant</b> to different representations of that stimulus</span>.” Since one can assign “meaning” to the activation of a concept cell, then that cell, theoretically,
<u>could not be part of any population coding scheme. It would be a contradiction</u></span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#282828">.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#282828;background:#F7F7F7"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#282828;background:#F7F7F7">“</span><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnins.2020.00059/full#B6"><span style="background:#F7F7F7;text-decoration:none">Reddy
and Thorpe (2014)</span></a><span style="color:#282828;background:#F7F7F7"> categorically state that “<strong><u><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">abstract, invariant representations</span></u></strong>” is “a hallmark of MTL concept cells.”<o:p></o:p></span></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#282828;background:#F7F7F7"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:12.0pt;text-indent:-12.0pt;background:#F7F7F7">
<i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#282828">“Grandmother and concept cells are the same; any argument against one also applies to the other:<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:12.0pt;background:#F7F7F7"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#282828">“<b>Selectivity or specificity</b>,” “<b>complex concept</b>,” “<b>meaning</b>,” “<b>multimodal invariance</b>” and “<b>abstractness</b>” (<a href="https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnins.2020.00059/full#B6">Reddy
and Thorpe, 2014</a>) are all integral properties of both concept cells and grandmother cells.</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#282828">”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">So read carefully what those neuroscientists write. You have plenty of evidence for grandmother cells, single cell activations having “meaning,” single cells representing abstract concepts (that’s why they
call them concept cells), and single cells representing symbols.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Asim Roy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Professor, Information Systems<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Arizona State University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lifeboat.com_ex_bios.asim.roy&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=wQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ&m=waSKY67JF57IZXg30ysFB_R7OG9zoQwFwxyps6FbTa1Zh5mttxRot_t4N7mn68Pj&s=oDRJmXX22O8NcfqyLjyu4Ajmt8pcHWquTxYjeWahfuw&e=" target="_blank">Lifeboat
Foundation Bios: Professor Asim Roy</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__isearch.asu.edu_profile_9973&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=wQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ&m=waSKY67JF57IZXg30ysFB_R7OG9zoQwFwxyps6FbTa1Zh5mttxRot_t4N7mn68Pj&s=jCesWT7oGgX76_y7PFh4cCIQ-Ife-esGblJyrBiDlro&e=" target="_blank">Asim
Roy | iSearch (asu.edu)</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> Connectionists <connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeffrey Bowers<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 22, 2024 8:32 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> KENTRIDGE, ROBERT W. <robert.kentridge@durham.ac.uk>; Gary Marcus <gary.marcus@nyu.edu>; Laurent Mertens <laurent.mertens@kuleuven.be><br>
<b>Cc:</b> connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: Early history of symbolic and neural network approaches to AI<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Good point, I should not have used simple cells as an example of grandmother cells. In fact, I agree that some sort of population coding is likely supporting our perception of orientation. For
example, simple cells are oriented in steps of about 5 degrees, but we can perceive orientations at a much finer granularity, so it must be a combination of cells driving our perception.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">The other reason I should have not used simple cells is that grandmother cells are a theory about how we identify familiar categories of objects (my grandmother, or a dog or a cat). Orientation
is a continuous dimension where distributed coding may be more suitable. The better example I gave is the word representation DOG in the IA model. The fact that the DOG detector is partly activated by the input CAT does not falsify the hypothesis that DOG
is locally coded. Indeed, it has hand-wired to be localist. In the same way, the fact that a Jennifer Aniston neuron might be weakly activated by another face does not rule out the hypothesis that the neuron selectively codes for Jennifer Aniston. I agree
it is not strong evidence for a grandmother cell – there may be other images that drive the neuron even more, we just don’t know given the limited number of images presented to the patient. But it is interesting that there are various demonstrations that
artificial networks learn grandmother cells under some conditions – when you can test the model on all the familiar categories it has seen. So, I would not rule out grandmother cells out of hand.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Jeff <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">KENTRIDGE, ROBERT W. <<a href="mailto:robert.kentridge@durham.ac.uk">robert.kentridge@durham.ac.uk</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, 21 February 2024 at 20:56<br>
<b>To: </b>Jeffrey Bowers <<a href="mailto:J.Bowers@bristol.ac.uk">J.Bowers@bristol.ac.uk</a>>, Gary Marcus <<a href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu">gary.marcus@nyu.edu</a>>, Laurent Mertens <<a href="mailto:laurent.mertens@kuleuven.be">laurent.mertens@kuleuven.be</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a> <<a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: Connectionists: Early history of symbolic and neural network approaches to AI<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Again, it is great to be examining the relationship between ‘real’ neural coding and the ins and outs of representation in ANNs. I’m really pleased to be able to make a few contributions to a
list which I’ve lurked on since the late 1980s!</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">I feel I should add an alternative interpretation of orientation coding in primary visual cortex to that so clearly explained by Jeffrey. It is, indeed, tempting to think of orientation tuned
cells as labelled lines or grandmother cells where we read off activity in individual cells as conveying the presence of a line segment with a specific orientation at a particular location in the visual field. As neuroscientists we can certainly do this. The
key question is whether brain areas outside primary visual cortex, which are consumers of information coded in primary visual cortex, also do this. The alternative view of orientation coding is that orientation is represented by a population code where orientation
is represented as the vector sum of orientation preferences in cells with many different orientation tunings, weighted by their levels of activity, and that it is this population code that is read by areas that are consumers of orientation information. The
notion of neural population coding of orientation was first tested electrophysiologically by Georgopoulos in 1982, examining population coding of the direction of arm movements in primary motor cortex. There is more recent psychophysical evidence that people’s
confidence in their judgements of the orientation of a visual stimulus can be predicted on the basis of a population coding scheme (Bays, 2016, A signature of neural coding at human perceptual limits. Journal of Vision,
</span><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jov.arvojournals.org/article.aspx?articleid=2552242__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!aP-4XRIOGz3tSqxCEvAYMvrXWHHg87KppnswxOp8aSXI03np2H6Yc1shENU-qnG-JURtIW3ZMyEYl_um6VBWFvjG4wM$"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">https://jov.arvojournals.org/article.aspx?articleid=2552242</span></a></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">),
where a person’s judgment is indicative of the state of a high level consumer of orientation information.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">So again, I’d err on the side of suggesting that although we can conceive of single neurons in primary visual cortex as encoding information (maybe not really symbols in this case anyway), it
isn’t our ability to interpret things like this that matters, rather, it is the way the rest of the brain interprets information delivered by primary visual cortex.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">cheers,</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Bob</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><img border="0" width="57" height="57" style="width:.5937in;height:.5937in" id="Picture_x0020_12" src="cid:image001.jpg@01DA657C.84B5D4B0" alt="Image result for university of durham logo"></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">
<img border="0" width="118" height="55" style="width:1.2291in;height:.5729in" id="Picture_x0020_11" src="cid:image002.png@01DA657C.84B5D4B0" alt="signature_2025328812"> <img border="0" width="94" height="55" style="width:.9791in;height:.5729in" id="Picture_x0020_10" src="cid:image003.png@01DA657C.84B5D4B0" alt="signature_824875734"> <img border="0" width="46" height="56" style="width:.4791in;height:.5833in" id="Picture_x0020_9" src="cid:image004.jpg@01DA657C.84B5D4B0" alt="Image result for durham cvac"></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Professor of Psychology, University of Durham.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Durham PaleoPsychology Group.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Durham Centre for Vision and Visual Cognition.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Durham Centre for Visual Arts and Culture.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><img border="0" width="49" height="49" style="width:.5104in;height:.5104in" id="Picture_x0020_8" src="cid:image005.jpg@01DA657C.84B5D4B0" alt="9k="></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Fellow. </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Canadian Institute for Advanced Research,
</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Brain, Mind & Consciousness Programme.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Department of Psychology,</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">University of Durham,</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Durham DH1 3LE, UK.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">p: +44 191 334 3261</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">f: +44 191 334 3434</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">Jeffrey Bowers <<a href="mailto:J.Bowers@bristol.ac.uk">J.Bowers@bristol.ac.uk</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, 21 February 2024 at 12:31<br>
<b>To: </b>KENTRIDGE, ROBERT W. <<a href="mailto:robert.kentridge@durham.ac.uk">robert.kentridge@durham.ac.uk</a>>, Gary Marcus <<a href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu">gary.marcus@nyu.edu</a>>, Laurent Mertens <<a href="mailto:laurent.mertens@kuleuven.be">laurent.mertens@kuleuven.be</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a> <<a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: Connectionists: Early history of symbolic and neural network approaches to AI</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;background:#FFFECF">[EXTERNAL EMAIL]</span></strong><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">It is possible to define a grandmother cell in a way that falsifies them. For instance, defining grandmother cells as single neurons that only *respond* to inputs from one category. Another definition that is more plausible
is single neurons that only *represent* one category. In psychology there are “localist” models that have single units that represent one category (e.g., there is a unit in the Interactive Activation Model that codes for the word DOG). And a feature of localist
codes is that they are partly activated by similar inputs. So a DOG detector is partly activated by the input HOG by virtue of sharing two letters. But that partial activation of the DOG unit from HOG is no evidence against a localist or grandmother cell
representation of the word DOG in the IA model. Just as a simple cell of a vertical line is partly activated by a line 5 degrees off vertical – that does not undermine the hypothesis that the simple cell *represents* vertical lines. I talk about the plausibility
of Grandmother cells and discuss the Aniston cells in a paper I wrote sometime back:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">Bowers, J. S. (2009). On the biological plausibility of grandmother cells: implications for neural network theories in psychology and neuroscience.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">Psychological
review</span></i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">116</span></i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">(1),
220.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">Connectionists <<a href="mailto:connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>> on behalf of KENTRIDGE, ROBERT
W. <<a href="mailto:robert.kentridge@durham.ac.uk">robert.kentridge@durham.ac.uk</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, 21 February 2024 at 11:48<br>
<b>To: </b>Gary Marcus <<a href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu">gary.marcus@nyu.edu</a>>, Laurent Mertens <<a href="mailto:laurent.mertens@kuleuven.be">laurent.mertens@kuleuven.be</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a> <<a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: Connectionists: Early history of symbolic and neural network approaches to AI</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">I agree – empirical evidence is just what we need in this super-interesting discussion.
</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">I should point out a few things about the Quiroga et al 2005 ‘Jennifer Aniston cell’ finding (<i>Nature</i>, <b>435</b>. 1102 - 1107 ).
</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Quiroga et al themselves are at pains to point out that whilst the cells they found responded to a wide variety of depictions of specific individuals they were not ‘Grandmother cells’ as defined
by Jerry Lettvin – that is, specific cells that respond to a broad range of depictions of an individual and *<b>only</b>* of that individual, meaning that one can infer that this individual is being perceived, thought of, etc. whenever that cell is active.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">The cells Quiroga found do, indeed, respond to remarkably diverse ranges of stimuli depicting individuals, including not just photos in different poses, at different ages, in different costumes
(including Hale Berry as Catwoman for the Hale Berry cell), but also names presented as text (e.g. ‘HALE BERRY’). Quiroga et al only presented stimuli representing a relatively small range of individuals and so it is unsafe to conclude that the cells they
found respond *<b>only</b>* to the specific individuals they found. Indeed, they report that the Jennifer Aniston cell also responded strongly to an image of a different actress, Lisa Kudrow, who appeared in ‘Friends’ along with Jennifer Aniston.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">So, the empirical evidence is still on the side of activity in sets of neurons as representing specific symbols (including those standing for specific individuals) rather than individual cells
standing for specific symbols.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">cheers</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Bob</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><img border="0" width="57" height="57" style="width:.5937in;height:.5937in" id="Picture_x0020_5" src="cid:image001.jpg@01DA657C.84B5D4B0" alt="Image result for university of durham logo"></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">
<img border="0" width="118" height="55" style="width:1.2291in;height:.5729in" id="Picture_x0020_4" src="cid:image002.png@01DA657C.84B5D4B0" alt="signature_2975123418"> <img border="0" width="94" height="55" style="width:.9791in;height:.5729in" id="Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image003.png@01DA657C.84B5D4B0" alt="signature_2364801924"> <img border="0" width="46" height="56" style="width:.4791in;height:.5833in" id="Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image004.jpg@01DA657C.84B5D4B0" alt="Image result for durham cvac"></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Professor of Psychology, University of Durham.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Durham PaleoPsychology Group.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Durham Centre for Vision and Visual Cognition.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Durham Centre for Visual Arts and Culture.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><img border="0" width="49" height="49" style="width:.5104in;height:.5104in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image005.jpg@01DA657C.84B5D4B0" alt="9k="></span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Fellow. </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Canadian Institute for Advanced Research,
</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Brain, Mind & Consciousness Programme.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Department of Psychology,</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">University of Durham,</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Durham DH1 3LE, UK.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">p: +44 191 334 3261</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">f: +44 191 334 3434</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">Connectionists <<a href="mailto:connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>> on behalf of Gary Marcus <<a href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu">gary.marcus@nyu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, 21 February 2024 at 05:49<br>
<b>To: </b>Laurent Mertens <<a href="mailto:laurent.mertens@kuleuven.be">laurent.mertens@kuleuven.be</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a> <<a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: Connectionists: Early history of symbolic and neural network approaches to AI</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;background:#FFFECF">[EXTERNAL EMAIL]</span></strong><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Deeply disappointing that someone would try to inject actual empirical evidence into this discussion.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">😂</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">On Feb 20, 2024, at 08:41, Laurent Mertens <<a href="mailto:laurent.mertens@kuleuven.be">laurent.mertens@kuleuven.be</a>> wrote:</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">Reacting to your statement:</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">"However, inside the skull of my brain, there are not any neurons that have a one-to-one correspondence to the symbol."</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">What about the Grandmother/Jennifer Aniston/Halle Berry neuron?</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">(See, e.g.,
</span><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.caltech.edu_about_news_single-2Dcell-2Drecognition-2Dhalle-2Dberry-2Dbrain-2Dcell-2D1013&d=DwMFAw&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=wQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ&m=it3XOFrc2yBru1bmF9dud4UoT60mjmur8mR3zGu365JPKmtWSuFnJTxRJOV4WSpa&s=kh-rqxQw6qcxbM8bhUYTHNaJHN5jtc3SLI5RXC5XgWA&e="><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/single-cell-recognition-halle-berry-brain-cell-1013</span></a></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">)</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">KR,</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">Laurent</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"> Connectionists <<a href="mailto:connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>>
on behalf of Weng, Juyang <<a href="mailto:weng@msu.edu">weng@msu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 19, 2024 11:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Michael Arbib <<a href="mailto:arbib@usc.edu">arbib@usc.edu</a>>; <a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">
connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a> <<a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: Early history of symbolic and neural network approaches to AI</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">
</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">Dear Michael,</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black"> You wrote, "Your brain did not deal with symbols?"</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black"> I have my Conscious Learning (DN-3) model that tells me:<br>
My brain "deals with symbols" that are sensed from the extra-body world by the brain's sensors and effecters.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black"> However, inside the skull of my brain, there are not any neurons that have a one-to-one correspondence to the symbol. In this sense, the brain
does not have any symbol in the skull.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black"> This is my educated hypothesis. The DN-3 brain does not need any symbol inside the skull.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black"> In this sense, almost all neural network models are flawed about the brain, as long as they have a block diagram where each block corresponds to
a function concept in the extra-body world. I am sorry to say that, which may make many enemies. </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black"> Best regards,</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">-John </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"> Michael Arbib <<a href="mailto:arbib@usc.edu">arbib@usc.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 19, 2024 1:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Weng, Juyang <<a href="mailto:weng@msu.edu">weng@msu.edu</a>>; <a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">
connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a> <<a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Connectionists: Early history of symbolic and neural network approaches to AI</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">
</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in"><span lang="EN-GB">So you believe that, as you wrote out these words, the neural networks in your brain did not deal with symbols?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in"><b><span lang="EN-GB">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-GB"> Connectionists <<a href="mailto:connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Weng, Juyang<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 19, 2024 8:07 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Connectionists: Early history of symbolic and neural network approaches to AI<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">I do not agree with
<span style="background:white">Newell and Simon</span> if they wrote that. Otherwise, images and video are also symbols. They probably were not sophisticated enough in 1976 to realize why neural networks in the brain should not contain or deal with symbols.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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