<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Apple Color Emoji";
panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:Aptos;
panose-1:2 11 0 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;
mso-ligatures:none;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang="EN-GB" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I agree – empirical evidence is just what we need in this super-interesting discussion.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I should point out a few things about the Quiroga et al 2005 ‘Jennifer Aniston cell’ finding (<i>Nature</i>, <b>435</b>. 1102 - 1107 ).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Quiroga et al themselves are at pains to point out that whilst the cells they found responded to a wide variety of depictions of specific individuals they were not ‘Grandmother cells’ as defined
by Jerry Lettvin – that is, specific cells that respond to a broad range of depictions of an individual and *<b>only</b>* of that individual, meaning that one can infer that this individual is being perceived, thought of, etc. whenever that cell is active.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The cells Quiroga found do, indeed, respond to remarkably diverse ranges of stimuli depicting individuals, including not just photos in different poses, at different ages, in different costumes (including
Hale Berry as Catwoman for the Hale Berry cell), but also names presented as text (e.g. ‘HALE BERRY’). Quiroga et al only presented stimuli representing a relatively small range of individuals and so it is unsafe to conclude that the cells they found respond
*<b>only</b>* to the specific individuals they found. Indeed, they report that the Jennifer Aniston cell also responded strongly to an image of a different actress, Lisa Kudrow, who appeared in ‘Friends’ along with Jennifer Aniston.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">So, the empirical evidence is still on the side of activity in sets of neurons as representing specific symbols (including those standing for specific individuals) rather than individual cells standing
for specific symbols.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Bob<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img width="57" height="57" style="width:.5937in;height:.5937in" id="Picture_x0020_5" src="cid:image001.jpg@01DA64AF.5BBBA710" alt="Image result for university of durham logo">
<img width="118" height="56" style="width:1.2291in;height:.5833in" id="Picture_x0020_4" src="cid:image002.png@01DA64AF.5BBBA710" alt="signature_2975123418"> <img width="94" height="54" style="width:.9791in;height:.5625in" id="Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image003.png@01DA64AF.5BBBA710" alt="signature_2364801924"> <img width="46" height="56" style="width:.4791in;height:.5833in" id="Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image004.jpg@01DA64AF.5BBBA710" alt="Image result for durham cvac"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Professor of Psychology, University of Durham.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Durham PaleoPsychology Group.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Durham Centre for Vision and Visual Cognition.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Durham Centre for Visual Arts and Culture.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img width="49" height="49" style="width:.5104in;height:.5104in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image005.jpg@01DA64AF.5BBBA710" alt="9k="><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Fellow. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Canadian Institute for Advanced Research, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal">Brain, Mind & Consciousness Programme.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Department of Psychology,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">University of Durham,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Durham DH1 3LE, UK.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">p: +44 191 334 3261<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">f: +44 191 334 3434<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div id="mail-editor-reference-message-container">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">Connectionists <connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu> on behalf of Gary Marcus <gary.marcus@nyu.edu><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, 21 February 2024 at 05:49<br>
<b>To: </b>Laurent Mertens <laurent.mertens@kuleuven.be><br>
<b>Cc: </b>connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu <connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: Connectionists: Early history of symbolic and neural network approaches to AI<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;background:#FFFECF">[EXTERNAL EMAIL]</span></strong><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;background:#FFFECF"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Deeply disappointing that someone would try to inject actual empirical evidence into this discussion.
<span style="font-family:"Apple Color Emoji"">😂</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On Feb 20, 2024, at 08:41, Laurent Mertens <laurent.mertens@kuleuven.be> wrote:</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">Reacting to your statement:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">"However, inside the skull of my brain, there are not any neurons that have a one-to-one correspondence to the symbol."</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">What about the Grandmother/Jennifer Aniston/Halle Berry neuron?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">(See, e.g.,
</span><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.caltech.edu_about_news_single-2Dcell-2Drecognition-2Dhalle-2Dberry-2Dbrain-2Dcell-2D1013&d=DwMFAw&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=wQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ&m=it3XOFrc2yBru1bmF9dud4UoT60mjmur8mR3zGu365JPKmtWSuFnJTxRJOV4WSpa&s=kh-rqxQw6qcxbM8bhUYTHNaJHN5jtc3SLI5RXC5XgWA&e="><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/single-cell-recognition-halle-berry-brain-cell-1013</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">KR,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">Laurent<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center">
<hr size="0" width="100%" align="center">
</div>
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From:</span></b><span style="color:black"> Connectionists <connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu> on behalf of Weng, Juyang <weng@msu.edu><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 19, 2024 11:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Michael Arbib <arbib@usc.edu>; connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu <connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: Early history of symbolic and neural network approaches to AI</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">Dear Michael,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black"> You wrote, "Your brain did not deal with symbols?"</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black"> I have my Conscious Learning (DN-3) model that tells me:<br>
My brain "deals with symbols" that are sensed from the extra-body world by the brain's sensors and effecters.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black"> However, inside the skull of my brain, there are not any neurons that have a one-to-one correspondence to the symbol. In this sense, the brain does not have
any symbol in the skull.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black"> This is my educated hypothesis. The DN-3 brain does not need any symbol inside the skull.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black"> In this sense, almost all neural network models are flawed about the brain, as long as they have a block diagram where each block corresponds to a function concept
in the extra-body world. I am sorry to say that, which may make many enemies. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black"> Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">-John <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center">
<hr size="0" width="100%" align="center">
</div>
<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From:</span></b><span style="color:black"> Michael Arbib <arbib@usc.edu><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 19, 2024 1:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Weng, Juyang <weng@msu.edu>; connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu <connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Connectionists: Early history of symbolic and neural network approaches to AI</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="margin:0cm">So you believe that, as you wrote out these words, the neural networks in your brain did not deal with symbols?</p>
<p style="margin:0cm"> </p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p style="margin:0cm"><b>From:</b> Connectionists <connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Weng, Juyang<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 19, 2024 8:07 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Connectionists: Early history of symbolic and neural network approaches to AI</p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0cm"> </p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;color:black">I do not agree with
<span style="background:white">Newell and Simon</span> if they wrote that. Otherwise, images and video are also symbols. They probably were not sophisticated enough in 1976 to realize why neural networks in the brain should not contain or deal with symbols.</span></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm">
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>