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<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Dear Gary,</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
I read your posted articles, but by those shallow arguments in your posts, somebody may say that your arguments are as shallow and unconvincing as Geoffrey Hinton's.</div>
<div class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> For example, you wrote, "lack depth in their comprehension of complex syntax, negation,
unusual circumstances, etc." But they are shallow because human kids may not have them either. </span></div>
<div class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> You overlooked the 5th aspect of the four aspects of learning (see my book
</span><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Natural and Artificial Intelligence NAI</span><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">): </span></div>
<div class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> (1) Learning framework (e.g., incremental vs. batch or DP); </span></div>
<div class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> (2) Sensors and effectors;</span></div>
<div class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> (3) Internal representations; </span></div>
<div class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> (4) C</span><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">omputational
resources</span><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">; and </span></div>
<div class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> (5) Learning experience.</span></div>
<div class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Do the above 5 aspects give you more convincing reasons to criticize Deep Learning
and LLMs? </span></div>
<div class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Best regards,</span></div>
<div class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">-John Weng</span></div>
<div class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> </span></div>
<div class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 12:55 PM Gary Marcus <gary.marcus@nyu.edu> wrote:</span></div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Thanks for your question. Why should we think Generative AI systems lack understanding?
Over the last couple weeks, since Hinton’s October critique of me surfaced, I have written five recent essays on the matter, filled with examples, each exploring a different facet of the issues, both in chatbots and image generation systems:</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(17, 85, 204);"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://open.substack.com/pub/garymarcus/p/deconstructing-geoffrey-hintons-weakest?r=8tdk6&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true__;!!HXCxUKc!xZPADw4pnG9r-wfuwd5diCPzfbSwVpfhABTD-ScZS7CMnHJ_g6T1IZwrEvj-_HMTaVK1WUAdtjEXkVPKQco$" target="_blank" id="OWAfe6ab54d-8aaf-af03-e745-c24acd38b9e6" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">https://open.substack.com/pub/<wbr style="scroll-behavior:auto !important">garymarcus/p/deconstructing-<wbr style="scroll-behavior:auto !important">geoffrey-hintons-weakest</a></span></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); direction: ltr;">
<span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(17, 85, 204);"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://open.substack.com/pub/garymarcus/p/further-trouble-in-hinton-city?r=8tdk6&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true__;!!HXCxUKc!xZPADw4pnG9r-wfuwd5diCPzfbSwVpfhABTD-ScZS7CMnHJ_g6T1IZwrEvj-_HMTaVK1WUAdtjEXH987njM$" target="_blank" id="OWA48dc97ea-fa90-0a0a-af3f-eed7c432914b" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">https://open.substack.com/pub/<wbr style="scroll-behavior:auto !important">garymarcus/p/further-trouble-<wbr style="scroll-behavior:auto !important">in-hinton-city</a></span></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); direction: ltr;">
<span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(17, 85, 204);"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://open.substack.com/pub/garymarcus/p/there-must-be-some-misunderstanding?r=8tdk6&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web__;!!HXCxUKc!xZPADw4pnG9r-wfuwd5diCPzfbSwVpfhABTD-ScZS7CMnHJ_g6T1IZwrEvj-_HMTaVK1WUAdtjEXEBCTn4A$" target="_blank" id="OWA72fcbbaa-9c03-36fd-ac2a-47ad3671a75b" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">https://open.substack.com/pub/<wbr style="scroll-behavior:auto !important">garymarcus/p/there-must-be-<wbr style="scroll-behavior:auto !important">some-misunderstanding</a></span></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); direction: ltr;">
<span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(17, 85, 204);"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://open.substack.com/pub/garymarcus/p/horse-rides-astronaut-redux?r=8tdk6&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true__;!!HXCxUKc!xZPADw4pnG9r-wfuwd5diCPzfbSwVpfhABTD-ScZS7CMnHJ_g6T1IZwrEvj-_HMTaVK1WUAdtjEX_jOlXqs$" target="_blank" id="OWAd728f353-3f8f-e88e-bc02-b148ff421693" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">https://open.substack.com/pub/<wbr style="scroll-behavior:auto !important">garymarcus/p/horse-rides-<wbr style="scroll-behavior:auto !important">astronaut-redux</a></span></li><li style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); direction: ltr;">
<span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(17, 85, 204);"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://open.substack.com/pub/garymarcus/p/statistics-versus-understanding-the?r=8tdk6&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true__;!!HXCxUKc!xZPADw4pnG9r-wfuwd5diCPzfbSwVpfhABTD-ScZS7CMnHJ_g6T1IZwrEvj-_HMTaVK1WUAdtjEXMj1-eCU$" target="_blank" id="OWA1d040344-cfb3-d1c0-453c-c02117f0f505" class="OWAAutoLink" style="color: rgb(17, 85, 204);">https://open.substack.com/pub/<wbr style="scroll-behavior:auto !important">garymarcus/p/statistics-<wbr style="scroll-behavior:auto !important">versus-understanding-the</a></span></li></ul>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">A few sample visuals from those below (read the essays for sources). The argument in
brief is that the systems do fine in statistically canonical situations, but lack depth in their comprehension of complex syntax, negation, unusual circumstances, etc. Much more context (and many more examples) in the essays themselves.</span></div>
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</span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Gary</span></div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Weng, Juyang<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 13, 2024 12:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> gary.marcus@nyu.edu <gary.marcus@nyu.edu><br>
<b>Cc:</b> connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu <connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: An open letter to Geoffrey Hinton: A call for civilized, moderated debate</font>
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<div class="x_elementToProof"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)">Dear Gary, </span></div>
<div class="x_elementToProof"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)"> You wrote, "LLMs do not really understand what they are saying".</span></div>
<div class="x_elementToProof"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)"> Those LLMs generated text in a natural language, didn't they?</span></div>
<div class="x_elementToProof"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)"> Why do you say that LLMs do not understand such text? </span></div>
<div class="x_elementToProof"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)"> The truly understandable answer to this question is not as simple as you
</span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:13px; color:rgb(34,34,34); background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">believe</span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)">! What you "believe"
is not convincing and intuitive to many laymen and media! </span></div>
<div class="x_elementToProof"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)"> That is why Jeffery Hinton can simply give you potshots without valid analysis.</span></div>
<div class="x_elementToProof"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)"> Best regards,</span></div>
<div class="x_elementToProof"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)">-John Weng</span></div>
<div class="x_elementToProof"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)">Brain-Mind Institute</span></div>
<div class="x_elementToProof"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)"> </span></div>
<div class="x_elementToProof"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)">On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 12:49 AM Gary Marcus <gary.marcus@nyu.edu> wrote:</span></div>
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<div style="direction:ltr; text-align:left; text-indent:0px"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)">Geoff Hinton recently asked:</span></div>
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</span></div>
<blockquote>
<div style="direction:ltr; text-align:left; text-indent:0px"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34); background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Which part of this is a misrepresentation: Gary Marcus believes that
LLMs do not really understand what they are saying and Gary Marcus also believes that they are an existential threat.</span></div>
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<div style="direction:ltr; text-align:left"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="direction:ltr; text-align:left; text-indent:0px"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)">That’s an easy one. The second, regarding existential threat. I</span></div>
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</span></div>
<div style="direction:ltr; text-align:left; text-indent:0px"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)">
<i>do</i> believe that LLMs do not really understand what they are saying. But I do
<i>not</i> believe that LLMs as such pose a (literally) existential threat, nor have I ever said such a thing, not in the Senate, not in my Substack, not here, and not anywhere else. (Anyone with evidence otherwise should step forward.)</span></div>
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</span></div>
<div style="direction:ltr; text-align:left; text-indent:0px"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)">I
<i>have</i> in fact said the opposite; e.g., I have said that the human species is hard to extinguish, because we are genetically and geographic diverse, capable of building vaccines, etc. E.g. in interview with AFP, posted at TechExplore I said that I thought
the extinction threat 'overblown', </span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(17,85,204)"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://techxplore.com/news/2023-06-human-extinction-threat-overblown-ai.html__;!!HXCxUKc!1aqYa3ceLXbEbMlwq37LKL7XidWbHppPrJ38-1eZiwfUUxqbMdizbH3eXbTmdYfzgAxFOpN3rN-a808jNKY$" target="_blank" id="OWA991bc947-b367-eab1-2ead-1b1571af0d92" class="x_OWAAutoLink" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">https://<wbr style="">techxplore.com/news/2023-06-<wbr style="">human-extinction-threat-<wbr style="">overblown-ai.html</a></span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)">.</span></div>
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<div style="direction:ltr; text-align:left; text-indent:0px"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)">My actual view is captured here ,
</span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(17,85,204)"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://garymarcus.substack.com/p/ai-risk-agi-risk__;!!HXCxUKc!1aqYa3ceLXbEbMlwq37LKL7XidWbHppPrJ38-1eZiwfUUxqbMdizbH3eXbTmdYfzgAxFOpN3rN-aP5MUOq0$" target="_blank" id="OWA7fae189c-47c2-32e4-ed0a-92de0f401146" class="x_OWAAutoLink" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">https://garymarcus.substack.<wbr style="">com/p/ai-risk-agi-risk</a></span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)">. </span></div>
<p style="direction:ltr; text-align:left; text-indent:0px"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)"><i>although a lot of the literature equates artificial intelligence risk with the risk of superintelligence
or artificial general intelligence, you don’t have to be superintelligent to create serious problems. I am not worried, immediately, about “AGI risk” (the risk of superintelligent machines beyond our control), in the near term I am worried about what I will
call “MAI risk”—Mediocre AI that is unreliable (a la Bing and GPT-4) but widely deployed—both in terms of the sheer number of people using it, and in terms of the access that the software has to the world. ..</i></span></p>
<p style="direction:ltr; text-align:left; text-indent:0px"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)"><i>Lots of ordinary humans, perhaps of above average intelligence but not necessarily genius-level, have created
all kinds of problems throughout history; in many ways, the critical variable is not intelligence but power, which often caches out as access. In principle, a single idiot with the nuclear codes could destroy the world, with only a modest amount of intelligence
and a surplus of ill-deserved access. …</i></span></p>
<p style="direction:ltr; text-align:left; text-indent:0px"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)"><i>We need to stop worrying (just) about Skynet and robots taking over the world, and think a lot more about
what criminals, including terrorists, might do with LLMs, and what, if anything, we might do to stop them.</i></span></p>
<div style="direction:ltr; text-align:left; text-indent:0px"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)">LLMs may well pose an existential threat to democracy, because (despite their limited capacity for understanding
and fact checking) they are excellent mimics, and their inability to fact-check is to the advantage of bad actors that which to exploit them. </span></div>
<div style="direction:ltr; text-align:left; text-indent:0px"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="direction:ltr; text-align:left; text-indent:0px"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)">But that doesn’t mean they are remotely likely to literally end the species. </span></div>
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<div style="direction:ltr; text-align:left; text-indent:0px"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)">I hope that clarifies my view.</span></div>
<div style="direction:ltr; text-align:left; text-indent:0px"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)">Gary</span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:9.75pt; color:rgb(34,34,34)">Juyang (John) Weng</span></div>
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