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Dear Asim:<o:p> </o:p></p>
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This is how I see it – without warranties…<o:p> </o:p></p>
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Consciousness at a low level is necessary for a distributed system with computational delays and learned predictive capabilities. It can arise as a consequence of having synchronous internal predictive and generative representations and external observations
about the actions of the self. All components of this loop; (a) observation of the actions, (b) representation of the actions, (c) actions should be synchronous. That has consequences on free will in the 200 ms domain. Since model-based prediction can achieve
synchronicity, the same system can be developed further for more extended time scales.
<o:p> </o:p></p>
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Then -- in agreement with Hava Siegelmann's proposal -- the problem disappears. The curse of dimensionality remains, and, from the point of view of intelligence, there is a need for algorithms that can overcome the curse and find the relevant (and few) components
for problem-solving. <o:p> </o:p></p>
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One such component is the self, its own features, including its own capabilities and desires. Self-consciousness emerges if the self is separated from the rest of the world (being a more challenging task and developing slowly for many autistic people, for example).
Constraints of the self can be established, and free will can play a role within these constraints. It is very different from low-level consciousness.
<o:p> </o:p></p>
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Best,<o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif">
András<o:p> </o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif">------------------------------------</span></p>
<div>Andras Lorincz<br>
</div>
<div>http://nipg.inf.elte.hu/<br>
</div>
<div>Fellow of the European Association for Artificial Intelligence<br>
</div>
<div>https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=EjETXQkAAAAJ&hl=en<br>
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<div>Department of Artificial Intelligence<br>
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<div>Faculty of Informatics<br>
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<div>Eotvos Lorand University<br>
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<span>Budapest, Hungary</span>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Asim Roy <ASIM.ROY@asu.edu><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 18, 2022 5:22 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Andras Lorincz <lorincz@inf.elte.hu>; Stephen José Hanson <jose@rubic.rutgers.edu>; Gary Marcus <gary.marcus@nyu.edu><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Connectionists <Connectionists@cs.cmu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Connectionists: Weird beliefs about consciousness</font>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">In 1998, after our debate about the brain at the WCCI in Anchorage, Alaska, I asked Walter Freeman if he thought the brain controls the body. His answer was, you can also say that the body controls the brain. I then asked him if the driver
controls a car, or the pilot controls an airplane. His answer was the same, that you can also say that the car controls the driver, or the plane controls the pilot. I then realized that Walter was also a philosopher and believed in the No-free Will theory
and what he was arguing for is that the world is simply made of interacting systems. However, both Walter, and his close friend John Taylor, were into consciousness.
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">I have argued with Walter on many different topics over nearly two decades and have utmost respect for him as a scholar, but this first argument I will always remember.</p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">Obviously, there’s a conflict between consciousness and the No-free Will theory. Wonder where we stand with regard to this conflict.</p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">Asim Roy</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Professor, Information Systems</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Arizona State University</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lifeboat.com_ex_bios.asim.roy&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=wQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ&m=waSKY67JF57IZXg30ysFB_R7OG9zoQwFwxyps6FbTa1Zh5mttxRot_t4N7mn68Pj&s=oDRJmXX22O8NcfqyLjyu4Ajmt8pcHWquTxYjeWahfuw&e=" target="_blank">Lifeboat
Foundation Bios: Professor Asim Roy</a></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__isearch.asu.edu_profile_9973&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=wQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ&m=waSKY67JF57IZXg30ysFB_R7OG9zoQwFwxyps6FbTa1Zh5mttxRot_t4N7mn68Pj&s=jCesWT7oGgX76_y7PFh4cCIQ-Ife-esGblJyrBiDlro&e=" target="_blank">Asim
Roy | iSearch (asu.edu)</a></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Connectionists <connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Andras Lorincz<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 15, 2022 6:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stephen José Hanson <jose@rubic.rutgers.edu>; Gary Marcus <gary.marcus@nyu.edu><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Connectionists <Connectionists@cs.cmu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: Weird beliefs about consciousness</p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Dear Steve and Gary:</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">This is how I see (try to understand) consciousness and the related terms:
</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">(Our) consciousness seems to be related to the close-to-deterministic nature of the episodes on from few hundred millisecond to a few second domain. Control instructions may leave our brain
200 ms earlier than the action starts and they become conscious only by that time. In addition, observations of those may also be delayed by a similar amount. (It then follows that the launching of the control actions is not conscious and -- therefore -- free
will can be debated in this very limited context.) On the other hand, model-based synchronization is necessary for timely observation, planning, decision making, and execution in a distributed and slow computational system. If this model-based synchronization
is not working properly, then the observation of the world breaks and schizophrenic symptoms appear. As an example, individuals with pronounced schizotypal traits are particularly successful in self-tickling (source:
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/philpapers.org/rec/LEMIWP__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!P1ufmU5XnzpvjxtS2M0AnytlX24RNsoDeNPfsqUNWbF6OU5p9xMqtMj9S3Pn3cY$">
https://philpapers.org/rec/LEMIWP</a>, and a discussion on Asperger and schizophrenia:
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2020.503462/full__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!P1ufmU5XnzpvjxtS2M0AnytlX24RNsoDeNPfsqUNWbF6OU5p9xMqtMj9l5NkQt4$">
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2020.503462/full</a>) a manifestation of improper binding. The internal model enables and the synchronization requires the internal model and thus a certain level of consciousness can appear in a time interval
around the actual time instant and its length depends on the short-term memory.</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Other issues, like separating the self from the rest of the world are more closely related to the soft/hard style interventions (as called in the recent deep learning literature), i.e., those
components (features) that can be modified/controlled, e.g., color and speed, and the ones that are Lego-like and can be separated/amputed/occluded/added.</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Best,</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Andras</span></p>
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<p><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color:black">------------------------------------</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Andras Lorincz</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/nipg.inf.elte.hu/__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!P1ufmU5XnzpvjxtS2M0AnytlX24RNsoDeNPfsqUNWbF6OU5p9xMqtMj9j2LbdH0$">http://nipg.inf.elte.hu/</a></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Fellow of the European Association for Artificial Intelligence</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/scholar.google.com/citations?user=EjETXQkAAAAJ&hl=en__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!P1ufmU5XnzpvjxtS2M0AnytlX24RNsoDeNPfsqUNWbF6OU5p9xMqtMj99i1VRm0$">https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=EjETXQkAAAAJ&hl=en</a></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Department of Artificial Intelligence</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Faculty of Informatics</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Eotvos Lorand University</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Budapest, Hungary
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From:</span></b><span style="color:black"> Connectionists <<a href="mailto:connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>> on behalf of Stephen José Hanson
<<a href="mailto:jose@rubic.rutgers.edu">jose@rubic.rutgers.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 14, 2022 8:30 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Gary Marcus <<a href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu">gary.marcus@nyu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Connectionists <<a href="mailto:connectionists@cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@cs.cmu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: Weird beliefs about consciousness</span> </p>
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<p style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="font-size:13.5pt; color:black">Gary, these weren't criterion. Let me try again.</span></p>
<p style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="font-size:13.5pt; color:black">I wasn't talking about wake-sleep cycles... I was talking about being awake or asleep and the transition that ensues..</span></p>
<p style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="font-size:13.5pt; color:black">Rooba's don't sleep.. they turn off, I have two of them. They turn on once (1) their batteries are recharged (2) a timer has been set for being turned on.</span></p>
<p style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="font-size:13.5pt; color:black">GPT3 is essentially a CYC that actually works.. by reading Wikipedia (which of course is a terribly biased sample).</span></p>
<p style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="font-size:13.5pt; color:black">I was indicating the difference between implicit and explicit learning/problem solving. Implicit learning/memory is unconscious and similar to a habit.. (good or bad).</span></p>
<p style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="font-size:13.5pt; color:black">I believe that when someone says "is gpt3 conscious?" they are asking: is gpt3 self-aware? Roombas know about vacuuming and they are unconscious.</span></p>
<p style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="font-size:13.5pt; color:black">S</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">On 2/14/22 12:45 PM, Gary Marcus wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">Stephen,</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"> </p>
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<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">On criteria (1)-(3), a high-end, mapping-equippped Roomba is far more plausible as a consciousness than GPT-3.</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"> </p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">1. The Roomba has a clearly defined wake-sleep cycle; GPT does not.</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">2. Roomba makes choices based on an explicit representation of its location relative to a mapped space. GPT lacks any consistent reflection of self; eg if you ask it, as I have, if
you are you person, and then ask if it is a computer, it’s liable to say yes to both, showing no stable knowledge of self.</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">3. Roomba has explicit, declarative knowledge eg of walls and other boundaries, as well its own location. GPT has no systematically interrogable explicit representations.</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">All this is said with tongue lodged partway in cheek, but I honestly don’t see what criterion would lead anyone to believe that GPT is a more plausible candidate for consciousness than
any other AI program out there. </span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"> </p>
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<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">ELIZA long ago showed that you could produce fluent speech that was mildly contextually relevant, and even convincing to the untutored; just because GPT is a better version of that
trick doesn’t mean it’s any more conscious.</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"> </p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">Gary</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black"><br>
<br>
</span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt; background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">On Feb 14, 2022, at 08:56, Stephen José Hanson
<a href="mailto:jose@rubic.rutgers.edu"><jose@rubic.rutgers.edu></a> wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black"> </span>
</p>
<p style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="font-size:13.5pt; color:black">this is a great list of behavior..
</span></p>
<p style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="font-size:13.5pt; color:black">Some biologically might be termed reflexive, taxes, classically conditioned, implicit (memory/learning)... all however would not be<br>
conscious in the several senses: (1) wakefulness-- sleep (2) self aware (3) explicit/declarative.</span></p>
<p style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="font-size:13.5pt; color:black">I think the term is used very loosely, and I believe what GPT3 and other AI are hoping to show signs of is "self-awareness"..</span></p>
<p style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="font-size:13.5pt; color:black">In response to : "why are you doing that?", "What are you doing now", "what will you be doing in 2030?"</span></p>
<p style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="font-size:13.5pt; color:black">Steve</span></p>
<p style="background:#ECCA99"> </p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">On 2/14/22 10:46 AM, Iam Palatnik wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">A somewhat related question, just out of curiosity.</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"> </p>
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<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">Imagine the following:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"> </p>
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<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">- An automatic solar panel that tracks the position of the sun.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">- A group of single celled microbes with phototaxis that follow the sunlight.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">- A jellyfish (animal without a brain) that follows/avoids the sunlight.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">- A cockroach (animal with a brain) that avoids the sunlight.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">- A drone with onboard AI that flies to regions of more intense sunlight to recharge its batteries.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">- A human that dislikes sunlight and actively avoids it.</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"> </p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">Can any of these, beside the human, be said to be aware or conscious of the sunlight, and why?</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">What is most relevant? Being a biological life form, having a brain, being able to make decisions based on the environment? Being taxonomically close to humans?</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 12:06 PM Gary Marcus <<a href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu">gary.marcus@nyu.edu</a>> wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt; background:#ECCA99"><span style="color:black">Also true: Many AI researchers are very unclear about what consciousness is and also very sure that ELIZA doesn’t have it.<br>
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Neither ELIZA nor GPT-3 have<br>
- anything remotely related to embodiment<br>
- any capacity to reflect upon themselves<br>
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Hypothesis: neither keyword matching nor tensor manipulation, even at scale, suffice in themselves to qualify for consciousness.<br>
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- Gary<br>
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> On Feb 14, 2022, at 00:24, Geoffrey Hinton <<a href="mailto:geoffrey.hinton@gmail.com" target="_blank">geoffrey.hinton@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Many AI researchers are very unclear about what consciousness is and also very sure that GPT-3 doesn’t have it. It’s a strange combination.<br>
> <br>
> </span></p>
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