<div dir="ltr"><div>Wlodek</div><div><br></div><div>I think that the debate about consciousness in the strong sense of having a conscious experience like we do is sterile. We will never have a measuring device for whether another entity is "conscious", and at some point, we will get to an AI that is sufficiently complex in its observable behavior that we will either accept its inner state of consciousness on trust - just as we do with humans and other animals - or admit that we will never believe that a machine that is "not like us" can ever be conscious. The "like us" part is more important than many of us in the AI field think: A big part of why we believe other humans and our dogs are conscious is because we know that they are "like us", and assume that they must share our capacity for inner conscious experience. We already see this at a superficial level where, as ordinary humans, we have a much easier time identifying with an embodied, humanoid AI like Wall-E or the Terminator than with a disembodied one like Hal or Skynet. This is also why so many people find the Boston Dynamics "dog" so disconcerting.<br></div><div><br></div><div>The question of embodiment is a complex one, as you know, of course, but I am with those who think that it is necessary for grounding mental representations - that it is the only way that the internal representations of the system are linked directly to its experience. For example, if an AI system trained only on text (like GPT-3) comes to learn that touching something hot results in the fact of getting burned, we cannot accept that as sufficient because it is based only on the juxtaposition of abstractions, not the actual painful experience of getting burned. For that, you need a body with sensors and a brain with a state corresponding to pain - something that can be done in an embodied robot. This is why I think that all language systems trained purely on the assumption of the distributional hypothesis of meaning will remain superficial; they lack the grounding that can only be supplied by experience. This does not mean that systems based on the distributional hypothesis cannot learn a lot, or even develop brain-like representations, as the following extremely interesting paper shows:</div><div><br></div><div>Y. Zhang, K. Han, R. Worth, and Z. Liu. Connecting concepts in the brain by mapping cortical representations of semantic relations. Nature Communications, 11(1):1877, Apr 2020.</div><div><br>In a formal sense, however, embodiment could be in any space, including very abstract ones. We can think of text data as GPT-3's world and, in that world, it is "embodied" and its fundamentally distributional learning, though superficial and lacking in experience to us, is grounded for it within its world. Of course, this is not a very useful view of embodiment and grounding since we want to create AI that is grounded in our sense, but one of the most under-appreciated risks of AI is that, as we develop systems that live in worlds very different than ours, they will - implicitly and emergently - embody values completely alien to us. The proverbial loan-processing AI that learns to be racially biased in just a caricature of this hazard, but one that should alert us to deeper issues. Our quaintly positivistic and reductionistic notion that we can deal with such things by removing biases from data, algorithms, etc., is misplaced. The world is too complicated for that.</div><div><br></div><div>Ali</div><div><br></div><div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><b>Ali A. Minai, Ph.D.</b><br>Professor and Graduate Program Director<br>Complex Adaptive Systems Lab<br>Department of Electrical Engineering & Computer Science<br></div><div>828 Rhodes Hall<br></div><div>University of Cincinnati<br>Cincinnati, OH 45221-0030<br></div><div><br>Phone: (513) 556-4783<br>Fax: (513) 556-7326<br>Email: <a href="mailto:Ali.Minai@uc.edu" target="_blank">Ali.Minai@uc.edu</a><br> <a href="mailto:minaiaa@gmail.com" target="_blank">minaiaa@gmail.com</a><br><br>WWW: <a href="http://www.ece.uc.edu/%7Eaminai/" target="_blank">https://eecs.ceas.uc.edu/~aminai/</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 7:27 AM Wlodzislaw Duch <<a href="mailto:wduch@umk.pl">wduch@umk.pl</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Asim,<br>
</p>
<p>I was on the Anchorage panel, and asked others what could be a
great achievement in computational intelligence. Steve Grossberg
replied, that symbolic AI is meaningless, but creation of
artificial rat that could survive in hostile environment would be
something. Of course this is still difficult, but perhaps DARPA
autonomous machines are not that far? <br>
</p>
<p>I also had similar discussions with Walter and support his
position: you cannot separate tightly coupled systems. Any
external influence will create activation in both, linear
causality looses its meaning. This is clear if both systems adjust
to each other. But even if only one system learns (brain) and the
other is mechanical but responds to human actions it may behave as
one system. Every musician knows that: piano becomes a part of our
body, responding in so many ways to actions, not only by producing
sounds but also providing haptic feedback. <br>
</p>
<p>This simply means that brains of locked-in people worked in
somehow different way than brains of healthy people. Why do we
consider them conscious? Because they can reflect on their mind
states, imagine things and describe their inner states. If GPT-3
was coupled with something like DALL-E that creates images from
text, and could describe what they see in their inner world,
create some kind of episodic memory, we would have hard time to
deny that this thing is not conscious of what it has in its mind.
Embodiment helps to create inner world and changes it, but it is
not necessary for consciousness. Can we find a good argument that
such system is not conscious of its own states? It may not have
all qualities of human consciousness, but that is a matter of more
detailed approximation of missing functions. <br>
</p>
<p> I have made this argument a long time ago (ex. in "<i style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,calibri;font-size:medium;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><a>Brain-inspired
conscious computing architecture</a>" </i><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,calibri;font-size:medium;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">written over 20 years ago, see more papers on this on
my web page). </span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,calibri;font-size:medium;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"></span></p>
<p>Wlodek</p>
<p>Prof. Włodzisław Duch<br>
Fellow, International Neural Network Society<br>
Past President, European Neural Network Society<br>
Head, Neurocognitive Laboratory, CMIT NCU, Poland<br>
</p>
<p>Google: <a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=Wlodek+Duch" target="_blank">Wlodzislaw
Duch</a></p>
<div><br>
On 18/02/2022 05:22, Asim Roy wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In 1998, after our debate about the brain
at the WCCI in Anchorage, Alaska, I asked Walter Freeman if he
thought the brain controls the body. His answer was, you can
also say that the body controls the brain. I then asked him if
the driver controls a car, or the pilot controls an airplane.
His answer was the same, that you can also say that the car
controls the driver, or the plane controls the pilot. I then
realized that Walter was also a philosopher and believed in
the No-free Will theory and what he was arguing for is that
the world is simply made of interacting systems. However, both
Walter, and his close friend John Taylor, were into
consciousness.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have argued with Walter on many different
topics over nearly two decades and have utmost respect for him
as a scholar, but this first argument I will always remember.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Obviously, there’s a conflict between
consciousness and the No-free Will theory. Wonder where we
stand with regard to this conflict.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Asim Roy<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Professor, Information Systems<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Arizona State University<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lifeboat.com_ex_bios.asim.roy&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=wQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ&m=waSKY67JF57IZXg30ysFB_R7OG9zoQwFwxyps6FbTa1Zh5mttxRot_t4N7mn68Pj&s=oDRJmXX22O8NcfqyLjyu4Ajmt8pcHWquTxYjeWahfuw&e=" target="_blank">Lifeboat Foundation
Bios: Professor Asim Roy</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__isearch.asu.edu_profile_9973&d=DwMFaQ&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=wQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ&m=waSKY67JF57IZXg30ysFB_R7OG9zoQwFwxyps6FbTa1Zh5mttxRot_t4N7mn68Pj&s=jCesWT7oGgX76_y7PFh4cCIQ-Ife-esGblJyrBiDlro&e=" target="_blank">Asim Roy | iSearch
(asu.edu)</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Connectionists
<a href="mailto:connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu" target="_blank"><connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Andras Lorincz<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 15, 2022 6:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stephen José Hanson
<a href="mailto:jose@rubic.rutgers.edu" target="_blank"><jose@rubic.rutgers.edu></a>; Gary Marcus
<a href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu" target="_blank"><gary.marcus@nyu.edu></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Connectionists
<a href="mailto:Connectionists@cs.cmu.edu" target="_blank"><Connectionists@cs.cmu.edu></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: Weird beliefs about
consciousness<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Dear Steve and Gary:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">This is how I see
(try to understand) consciousness and the related terms:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">(Our)
consciousness seems to be related to the
close-to-deterministic nature of the episodes on from
few hundred millisecond to a few second domain.
Control instructions may leave our brain 200 ms
earlier than the action starts and they become
conscious only by that time. In addition, observations
of those may also be delayed by a similar amount. (It
then follows that the launching of the control actions
is not conscious and -- therefore -- free will can be
debated in this very limited context.) On the other
hand, model-based synchronization is necessary for
timely observation, planning, decision making, and
execution in a distributed and slow computational
system. If this model-based synchronization is not
working properly, then the observation of the world
breaks and schizophrenic symptoms appear. As an
example, individuals with pronounced schizotypal
traits are particularly successful in self-tickling
(source:
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/philpapers.org/rec/LEMIWP__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!P1ufmU5XnzpvjxtS2M0AnytlX24RNsoDeNPfsqUNWbF6OU5p9xMqtMj9S3Pn3cY$" target="_blank">
https://philpapers.org/rec/LEMIWP</a>, and a
discussion on Asperger and schizophrenia:
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2020.503462/full__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!P1ufmU5XnzpvjxtS2M0AnytlX24RNsoDeNPfsqUNWbF6OU5p9xMqtMj9l5NkQt4$" target="_blank">
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2020.503462/full</a>)
a manifestation of improper binding. The internal
model enables and the synchronization requires the
internal model and thus a certain level of
consciousness can appear in a time interval around the
actual time instant and its length depends on the
short-term memory.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Other issues, like
separating the self from the rest of the world are more
closely related to the soft/hard style interventions (as
called in the recent deep learning literature), i.e.,
those components (features) that can be
modified/controlled, e.g., color and speed, and the ones
that are Lego-like and can be
separated/amputed/occluded/added.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Andras<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_1420086470503611017Signature">
<div>
<div id="gmail-m_1420086470503611017divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div id="gmail-m_1420086470503611017divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div name="divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="color:black">------------------------------------<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Andras
Lorincz<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/nipg.inf.elte.hu/__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!P1ufmU5XnzpvjxtS2M0AnytlX24RNsoDeNPfsqUNWbF6OU5p9xMqtMj9j2LbdH0$" target="_blank">http://nipg.inf.elte.hu/</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Fellow
of the European Association for
Artificial Intelligence<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/scholar.google.com/citations?user=EjETXQkAAAAJ&hl=en__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!P1ufmU5XnzpvjxtS2M0AnytlX24RNsoDeNPfsqUNWbF6OU5p9xMqtMj99i1VRm0$" target="_blank">https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=EjETXQkAAAAJ&hl=en</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Department
of Artificial Intelligence<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Faculty
of Informatics<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Eotvos
Lorand University<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Budapest,
Hungary
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center">
<hr width="98%" size="2" align="center">
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_1420086470503611017divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From:</span></b><span style="color:black"> Connectionists <<a href="mailto:connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu" target="_blank">connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>>
on behalf of Stephen José Hanson <<a href="mailto:jose@rubic.rutgers.edu" target="_blank">jose@rubic.rutgers.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 14, 2022 8:30 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Gary Marcus <<a href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu" target="_blank">gary.marcus@nyu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Connectionists <<a href="mailto:connectionists@cs.cmu.edu" target="_blank">connectionists@cs.cmu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: Weird beliefs about
consciousness</span> <u></u>
<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">Gary, these weren't
criterion. Let me try again.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">I wasn't talking
about wake-sleep cycles... I was talking about being awake
or asleep and the transition that ensues..</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">Rooba's don't sleep..
they turn off, I have two of them. They turn on once (1)
their batteries are recharged (2) a timer has been set for
being turned on.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">GPT3 is essentially a
CYC that actually works.. by reading Wikipedia (which of
course is a terribly biased sample).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">I was indicating the
difference between implicit and explicit learning/problem
solving. Implicit learning/memory is unconscious and
similar to a habit.. (good or bad).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">I believe that when
someone says "is gpt3 conscious?" they are asking: is
gpt3 self-aware? Roombas know about vacuuming and
they are unconscious.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">S</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">On 2/14/22 12:45 PM, Gary Marcus
wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">Stephen,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">On criteria (1)-(3), a high-end,
mapping-equippped Roomba is far more plausible as a
consciousness than GPT-3.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">1. The Roomba has a clearly
defined wake-sleep cycle; GPT does not.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">2. Roomba makes choices based on
an explicit representation of its location relative to
a mapped space. GPT lacks any consistent reflection of
self; eg if you ask it, as I have, if you are you
person, and then ask if it is a computer, it’s liable
to say yes to both, showing no stable knowledge of
self.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">3. Roomba has explicit,
declarative knowledge eg of walls and other
boundaries, as well its own location. GPT has no
systematically interrogable explicit representations.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">All this is said with tongue
lodged partway in cheek, but I honestly don’t see what
criterion would lead anyone to believe that GPT is a
more plausible candidate for consciousness than any
other AI program out there. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">ELIZA long ago showed that you
could produce fluent speech that was mildly
contextually relevant, and even convincing to the
untutored; just because GPT is a better version of
that trick doesn’t mean it’s any more conscious.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">Gary</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black"><br>
<br>
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">On Feb 14, 2022, at 08:56,
Stephen José Hanson
<a href="mailto:jose@rubic.rutgers.edu" target="_blank"><jose@rubic.rutgers.edu></a>
wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black"> </span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">this is a great
list of behavior..
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">Some
biologically might be termed reflexive, taxes,
classically conditioned, implicit
(memory/learning)... all however would not be<br>
conscious in the several senses: (1) wakefulness--
sleep (2) self aware (3) explicit/declarative.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">I think the
term is used very loosely, and I believe what GPT3
and other AI are hoping to show signs of is
"self-awareness"..</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">In response to
: "why are you doing that?", "What are you doing
now", "what will you be doing in 2030?"</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">Steve</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">On 2/14/22 10:46 AM, Iam
Palatnik wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">A somewhat related
question, just out of curiosity.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">Imagine the following:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">- An automatic solar panel
that tracks the position of the sun.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">- A group of single
celled microbes with phototaxis that follow
the sunlight.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">- A jellyfish (animal
without a brain) that follows/avoids the
sunlight.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">- A cockroach (animal
with a brain) that avoids the sunlight.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">- A drone with onboard
AI that flies to regions of more intense
sunlight to recharge its batteries.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">- A human that dislikes
sunlight and actively avoids it.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">Can any of these, beside
the human, be said to be aware or conscious
of the sunlight, and why?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">What is most relevant?
Being a biological life form, having a
brain, being able to make decisions based on
the environment? Being taxonomically close
to humans?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at
12:06 PM Gary Marcus <<a href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu" target="_blank">gary.marcus@nyu.edu</a>>
wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">Also true: Many AI
researchers are very unclear about what
consciousness is and also very sure that ELIZA
doesn’t have it.<br>
<br>
Neither ELIZA nor GPT-3 have<br>
- anything remotely related to embodiment<br>
- any capacity to reflect upon themselves<br>
<br>
Hypothesis: neither keyword matching nor
tensor manipulation, even at scale, suffice in
themselves to qualify for consciousness.<br>
<br>
- Gary<br>
<br>
> On Feb 14, 2022, at 00:24, Geoffrey
Hinton <<a href="mailto:geoffrey.hinton@gmail.com" target="_blank">geoffrey.hinton@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Many AI researchers are very unclear
about what consciousness is and also very sure
that GPT-3 doesn’t have it. It’s a strange
combination.<br>
> <br>
> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(236,202,153) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="color:black">--</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote></div>