<div><div dir="auto" style="font-size:1rem;color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"><span style="font-size:1rem">I agree with what Gary is saying. However, I do have a further question. How will we ever know whether even a fully embodied, high performing intelligent machine that can “explain” its decisions has the capacity for actual self-reflection? How can we be sure that other humans have the capacity for self-reflection, beyond the fact that they are like us, give us understandable reports of their inner thinking, and tickle our mirror system in the right way?</span></div><div dir="auto" style="color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"><br></div><div dir="auto" style="font-size:1rem;color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px">This is not to deny that humans can do self-reflection; it is about whether we have an objective method to know that another species not like us is doing it. At some point in what I think will be a fairly distant future, an nth- generation, descendent of GPT-3 may be so sophisticated that the question will become moot. That is the inevitable consequence of a non-dualistic view of intelligence that we all share, and will come to pass unless the current narrow application-driven view of AI derails the entire project.</div><div dir="auto" style="color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"><br></div><div dir="auto" style="font-size:1rem;color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px">I do think that that that system will have a very different neural architecture much closer to the brain’s, will be embodied, will not need to learn using billions of data points and millions of gradient-descent iterations, and will be capable of actual mental growth (not just learning more stuff but learning new modes of understanding) over its lifetime. It will also not be able to explain its inner thoughts perfectly, nor feel the need to do so because it will not be our obedient servant. In other words, it will not be anything like GPT-3.</div><div dir="auto" style="color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"><br></div><div dir="auto" style="font-size:1rem;color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px">Ali</div></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 2:11 AM Gary Marcus <<a href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu">gary.marcus@nyu.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr">Stephen,</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On criteria (1)-(3), a high-end, mapping-equippped Roomba is far more plausible as a consciousness than GPT-3.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">1. The Roomba has a clearly defined wake-sleep cycle; GPT does not.</div><div dir="ltr">2. Roomba makes choices based on an explicit representation of its location relative to a mapped space. GPT lacks any consistent reflection of self; eg if you ask it, as I have, if you are you person, and then ask if it is a computer, it’s liable to say yes to both, showing no stable knowledge of self.</div><div dir="ltr">3. Roomba has explicit, declarative knowledge eg of walls and other boundaries, as well its own location. GPT has no systematically interrogable explicit representations.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">All this is said with tongue lodged partway in cheek, but I honestly don’t see what criterion would lead anyone to believe that GPT is a more plausible candidate for consciousness than any other AI program out there. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">ELIZA long ago showed that you could produce fluent speech that was mildly contextually relevant, and even convincing to the untutored; just because GPT is a better version of that trick doesn’t mean it’s any more conscious.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Gary</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Feb 14, 2022, at 08:56, Stephen José Hanson <<a href="mailto:jose@rubic.rutgers.edu" target="_blank">jose@rubic.rutgers.edu</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<p><font size="+1">this is a great list of behavior.. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Some biologically might be termed reflexive,
taxes, classically conditioned, implicit (memory/learning)...
all however would not be<br>
conscious in the several senses: (1) wakefulness-- sleep (2)
self aware (3) explicit/declarative.</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">I think the term is used very loosely, and I
believe what GPT3 and other AI are hoping to show signs of is
"self-awareness"..</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">In response to : "why are you doing that?",
"What are you doing now", "what will you be doing in 2030?"</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Steve<br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><br>
</font></p>
<div>On 2/14/22 10:46 AM, Iam Palatnik
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>A somewhat related question, just out of curiosity.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Imagine the following:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- An automatic solar panel that tracks the position of the
sun.<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>- A group of single celled microbes with phototaxis that
follow the sunlight.</div>
<div>- A jellyfish (animal without a brain) that
follows/avoids the sunlight.</div>
<div>
- A cockroach (animal with a brain) that avoids the
sunlight.</div>
<div>- A drone with onboard AI that flies to regions of more
intense sunlight to recharge its batteries.<br>
</div>
<div>- A human that dislikes sunlight and actively avoids it.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Can any of these, beside the human, be said to be aware
or conscious of the sunlight, and why?</div>
<div>What is most relevant? Being a biological life form,
having a brain, being able to make decisions based on the
environment? Being taxonomically close to humans?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 12:06
PM Gary Marcus <<a href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu" target="_blank">gary.marcus@nyu.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Also
true: Many AI researchers are very unclear about what
consciousness is and also very sure that ELIZA doesn’t have
it.<br>
<br>
Neither ELIZA nor GPT-3 have<br>
- anything remotely related to embodiment<br>
- any capacity to reflect upon themselves<br>
<br>
Hypothesis: neither keyword matching nor tensor manipulation,
even at scale, suffice in themselves to qualify for
consciousness.<br>
<br>
- Gary<br>
<br>
> On Feb 14, 2022, at 00:24, Geoffrey Hinton <<a href="mailto:geoffrey.hinton@gmail.com" target="_blank">geoffrey.hinton@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Many AI researchers are very unclear about what
consciousness is and also very sure that GPT-3 doesn’t have
it. It’s a strange combination.<br>
> <br>
> <br></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><div dir="auto"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>-- <br>
<img border="0" src="cid:17efde2cc8d13d051521" style="width:402px;max-width:100%"></div>
</div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><b>Ali A. Minai, Ph.D.</b><br>Professor and Graduate Program Director<br>Complex Adaptive Systems Lab<br>Department of Electrical Engineering & Computer Science<br></div><div>828 Rhodes Hall<br></div><div>University of Cincinnati<br>Cincinnati, OH 45221-0030<br><br></div><div>Past-President (2015-2016)<br></div><div>International Neural Network Society<br></div><div><br>Phone: (513) 556-4783<br>Fax: (513) 556-7326<br>Email: <a href="mailto:Ali.Minai@uc.edu" target="_blank">Ali.Minai@uc.edu</a><br> <a href="mailto:minaiaa@gmail.com" target="_blank">minaiaa@gmail.com</a><br><br>WWW: <a href="http://www.ece.uc.edu/%7Eaminai/" target="_blank">https://eecs.ceas.uc.edu/~aminai/</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>