<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr">Dear John, </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I agree with you that cluttered scenes are critical, but Geoff’s GLOM paper [<a href="https://www.cs.toronto.edu/~hinton/absps/glomfinal.pdf">https://www.cs.toronto.edu/~hinton/absps/glomfinal.pdf</a>] might actually have some relevance. It may well be that we need to do a better job with parts and whole before we can fully address clutter, and Geoff is certainly taking that question seriously.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Geoff’s “Stable islands of identical vectors” do sound suspiciously like symbols to me (in a good way!), but regardless, they seem to me to be a plausible candidate as a foundation for coping with clutter. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">And not just cluttered scenes, but also <b>relations between multiple objects in a scene</b>, which is another example of the broader issue you raise, challenging for pure MLPs but critical for deeper AI.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Gary</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><blockquote type="cite">On Feb 7, 2022, at 00:23, Juyang Weng <juyang.weng@gmail.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">Dear Geoff Hinton,</span></div><div>I respect that you have been working on pattern recognition on isolated characters using neural networks.</div><div><br></div><div>However, I am deeply disappointed that after receiving the Turing Award 2018, you are still falling behind your own award work by talking about "<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">how you</span></div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">recognize that a handwritten 2 is a 2." You have fallen behind our group's </span><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">Creceptron work in 1992, let alone our group's work on 3D-to-2D-to-3D Conscious Learning using DNs. Both deal with cluttered scenes. </span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">Specifically, you will never be able to get a correct </span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">causal explanation by looking at </span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">a single hand-written 2. Your problem is too small to explain a brain network. You must look at cluttered sciences, with many objects. </span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">Yours humbly,</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">-John</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"> </span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">----</span><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">Message: 7</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 15:24:02 -0500</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">From: Geoffrey Hinton <</span><a href="mailto:geoffrey.hinton@gmail.com" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;text-decoration-line:none">geoffrey.hinton@gmail.com</a><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">></span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">To: "Dietterich, Thomas" <</span><a href="mailto:tgd@oregonstate.edu" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;text-decoration-line:none">tgd@oregonstate.edu</a><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">></span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">Cc: AIhub <</span><a href="mailto:aihuborg@gmail.com" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;text-decoration-line:none">aihuborg@gmail.com</a><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">>,</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"> "</span><a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;text-decoration-line:none">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">"</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"> <</span><a href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;text-decoration-line:none">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">></span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">Subject: Re: Connectionists: Stephen Hanson in conversation with Geoff</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"> Hinton</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">Message-ID:</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"> <CAK8NvqpAHbC=T2U3dZb=</span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">QaSMVkY4=</span><a href="mailto:xCqaYmzu%2Bpq5rnoh%2Bp2mQ@mail.gmail.com" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;text-decoration-line:none">xCqaYmzu+pq5rnoh+p2mQ@mail.gmail.com</a><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">></span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">I agree that it's nice to have a causal explanations. But I am not</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">convinced there will ever be a simple causal explanation for how you</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif">recognize that a handwritten 2 is a 2. </span><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Juyang (John) Weng<br></div></div></div></div></div>
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