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<p><font size="+1">I see, sort of a bound.</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">so "understanding" could be a continuum.. and
further dependent on whom we are interacting with... </font><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/4/22 1:37 PM, Dietterich, Thomas
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">I mean that
if you only say a system is “understanding” X if it can
enumerate all of the consequences of X, then you have solved
what is known as the “Ramification Problem”. And it is easy
to show that this is impossible. Hence, our criteria for
saying that a system “understandings” must lie somewhere
between “doing the right thing in this one situation” and
knowing all of the consequences of its beliefs.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">--Tom<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Console";color:windowtext">Thomas G. Dietterich,
Distinguished Professor Voice: 541-737-5559<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Console";color:windowtext">School of Electrical
Engineering FAX: 541-737-1300<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Console";color:windowtext"> and Computer
Science URL:
eecs.oregonstate.edu/~tgd<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Console";color:windowtext">US Mail: 1148 Kelley
Engineering Center
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Console";color:windowtext">Office: 2067 Kelley
Engineering Center<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Console";color:windowtext">Oregon State Univ.,
Corvallis, OR 97331-5501<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="color:windowtext"> Stephen José Hanson
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jose@rubic.rutgers.edu"><jose@rubic.rutgers.edu></a>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 4, 2022 4:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dietterich, Thomas
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tgd@oregonstate.edu"><tgd@oregonstate.edu></a>; Gary Marcus
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu"><gary.marcus@nyu.edu></a>; Danko Nikolic
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:danko.nikolic@gmail.com"><danko.nikolic@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> AIhub <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:aihuborg@gmail.com"><aihuborg@gmail.com></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: Stephen Hanson in
conversation with Geoff Hinton<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><span style="color:#D73F09">[This email originated from
outside of OSU. Use caution with links and attachments.]</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Tom, understanding is a
theorem?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt">you mean it should be a
theorem?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt">and yes, if you are having
brain surgery.. you hope your surgeon, "understands" what
they are doing..</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Steve</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 2/3/22 12:31 PM, Dietterich, Thomas
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">“Understanding” is not a Boolean. It is
a theorem that no system can enumerate all of the
consequences of a state of affairs in the world.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">For low-stakes application work, we can
be satisfied by a system that “does the right thing”. If
the system draws a good picture, that’s sufficient. It
“understood” the request.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But for higher-stakes
applications---and for advancing the science---we seek a
causal account of how the components of a system cause it
to do the right thing. We are hoping that a small set of
mechanisms can produce broad coverage of intelligent
behavior. This gives us confidence that the system will
respond correctly outside of the narrow tasks on which we
have tested it.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">--Tom <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Courier New
;color:#1F497D",serif">Thomas G. Dietterich,
Distinguished Professor Emeritus</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Courier New
;color:#1F497D",serif">School of Electrical
Engineering and Computer
Science
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Courier New
;color:#1F497D",serif">US Mail: 1148 Kelley
Engineering Center
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Courier New
;color:#1F497D",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Courier New
;color:#1F497D",serif">Office: 2067 Kelley
Engineering Center
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Courier New
;color:#1F497D",serif">Oregon State Univ.,
Corvallis, OR 97331-5501</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Courier New
;color:#1F497D",serif">Voice: 541-737-5559; FAX:
541-737-1300</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Courier New
;color:#1F497D",serif">URL:
<a
href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.engr.oregonstate.edu%2F~tgd%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ctgd%40oregonstate.edu%7Cfe236f1b41ad46b207f208d9e7d5fbe7%7Cce6d05e13c5e4d6287a84c4a2713c113%7C0%7C0%7C637795730372759823%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=0GMBZ29dC97h0bfhQXJ7yS47%2FTFUI9b8POzuhz1SZT4%3D&reserved=0"
moz-do-not-send="true">
http://web.engr.oregonstate.edu/~tgd/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Connectionists <a
href="mailto:connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu></a> <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Gary Marcus<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 3, 2022 8:26 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Danko Nikolic <a
href="mailto:danko.nikolic@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><danko.nikolic@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>;
AIhub
<a href="mailto:aihuborg@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><aihuborg@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Connectionists: Stephen Hanson in
conversation with Geoff Hinton<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="color:#D73F09">[This email originated from
outside of OSU. Use caution with links and attachments.]</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Danko, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Well said. I had a somewhat similar
response to Jeff Dean’s 2021 TED talk, in which he
said (paraphrasing from memory, because I don’t
remember the precise words) that the famous 200 Quoc
Le unsupervised model [<a
href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.googleusercontent.com%2Fmedia%2Fresearch.google.com%2Fen%2F%2Farchive%2Funsupervised_icml2012.pdf&data=04%7C01%7Ctgd%40oregonstate.edu%7Cfe236f1b41ad46b207f208d9e7d5fbe7%7Cce6d05e13c5e4d6287a84c4a2713c113%7C0%7C0%7C637795730372759823%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=%2Fttn8tKZ9K6zekF3kO7qxz3xLirDNc%2Bt4aQFht6mcQw%3D&reserved=0"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.com/en//archive/unsupervised_icml2012.pdf</a>]
had learned the concept of a ca. In reality the model
had clustered together some catlike images based on
the image statistics that it had extracted, but it was
a long way from a full, counterfactual-supporting
concept of a cat, much as you describe below. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I fully agree with you that the
reason for even having a semantics is as you put it,
"to 1) learn with a few examples and 2) apply the
knowledge to a broad set of situations.” GPT-3
sometimes gives the appearance of having done so, but
it falls apart under close inspection, so the problem
remains unsolved.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gary<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Feb 3, 2022, at 3:19 AM,
Danko Nikolic <<a
href="mailto:danko.nikolic@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">danko.nikolic@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">G. Hinton wrote: "I
believe that any reasonable person would
admit that if you ask a neural net to draw a
picture of a hamster wearing a red hat and
it draws such a picture, it understood the
request."
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would like to suggest
why drawing a hamster with a red hat does
not necessarily imply understanding of the
statement "hamster wearing a red hat".<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">To understand that
"hamster wearing a red hat" would mean
inferring, in newly emerging situations of
this hamster, all the real-life
implications that the red hat brings to
the little animal.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What would happen to
the hat if the hamster rolls on its
back? (Would the hat fall off?)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What would happen to
the red hat when the hamster enters its
lair? (Would the hat fall off?)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What would happen to
that hamster when it goes foraging? (Would
the red hat have an influence on finding
food?)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What would happen in a
situation of being chased by a predator?
(Would it be easier for predators to spot
the hamster?)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">...and so on.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Countless many
questions can be asked. One has understood
"hamster wearing a red hat" only if one
can answer reasonably well many of such
real-life relevant questions. Similarly, a
student has understood materias in a class
only if they can apply the materials in
real-life situations (e.g., applying
Pythagora's theorem). If a student gives a
correct answer to a multiple choice
question, we don't know whether the
student understood the material or whether
this was just rote learning (often, it is
rote learning). <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I also suggest that
understanding also comes together with
effective learning: We store new
information in such a way that we can
recall it later and use it effectively
i.e., make good inferences in newly
emerging situations based on this
knowledge.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In short: Understanding
makes us humans able to 1) learn with a
few examples and 2) apply the knowledge to
a broad set of situations. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">No neural network today
has such capabilities and we don't know
how to give them such capabilities. Neural
networks need large amounts of
training examples that cover a large
variety of situations and then
the networks can only deal with what the
training examples have already covered.
Neural networks cannot extrapolate in that
'understanding' sense.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I suggest that
understanding truly extrapolates from a
piece of knowledge. It is not about
satisfying a task such as translation
between languages or drawing hamsters with
hats. It is how you got the capability to
complete the task: Did you only have a few
examples that covered something different
but related and then you extrapolated from
that knowledge? If yes, this is going in
the direction of understanding. Have you
seen countless examples and then
interpolated among them? Then perhaps it
is not understanding.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So, for the case of
drawing a hamster wearing a red hat,
understanding perhaps would have taken
place if the following happened before
that:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1) first, the network
learned about hamsters (not many examples)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2) after that the
network learned about red hats (outside
the context of hamsters and without many
examples) <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">3) finally the network
learned about drawing (outside of the
context of hats and hamsters, not many
examples)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">After that, the network
is asked to draw a hamster with a red hat.
If it does it successfully, maybe we have
started cracking the problem of
understanding.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Note also that this
requires the network to learn sequentially
without exhibiting catastrophic forgetting
of the previous knowledge, which is
possibly also a consequence of human
learning by understanding.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Danko<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dr. Danko Nikolić<br>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">--- A progress
usually starts with an insight ---<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at
9:55 AM Asim Roy <<a
href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Without
getting into the specific dispute
between Gary and Geoff, I think with
approaches similar to GLOM, we are
finally headed in the right direction.
There’s plenty of neurophysiological
evidence for single-cell abstractions
and multisensory neurons in the brain,
which one might claim correspond to
symbols. And I think we can finally
reconcile the decades old dispute
between Symbolic AI and Connectionism.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="background:yellow">GARY:
(Your GLOM, which as you know I
praised publicly, is in many ways an
effort to wind up with encodings
that effectively serve as symbols in
exactly that way, guaranteed to
serve as consistent representations
of specific concepts.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="background:yellow">GARY: I
have
<i>never</i> called for dismissal of
neural networks, but rather for some
hybrid between the two (as you
yourself contemplated in 1991); the
point of the 2001 book was to
characterize exactly where
multilayer perceptrons succeeded and
broke down, and where symbols could
complement them.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Asim
Roy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Professor,
Information Systems<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Arizona
State University<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__lifeboat.com_ex_bios.asim.roy%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DslrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ%26r%3DwQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ%26m%3DwaSKY67JF57IZXg30ysFB_R7OG9zoQwFwxyps6FbTa1Zh5mttxRot_t4N7mn68Pj%26s%3DoDRJmXX22O8NcfqyLjyu4Ajmt8pcHWquTxYjeWahfuw%26e%3D&data=04%7C01%7Ctgd%40oregonstate.edu%7Cfe236f1b41ad46b207f208d9e7d5fbe7%7Cce6d05e13c5e4d6287a84c4a2713c113%7C0%7C0%7C637795730372759823%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=WcjLo5CKdZHVYMrODcH4m1t8P1D1vRP9Kk6r0HMEp5o%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Lifeboat
Foundation Bios: Professor Asim Roy</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__isearch.asu.edu_profile_9973%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DslrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ%26r%3DwQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ%26m%3DwaSKY67JF57IZXg30ysFB_R7OG9zoQwFwxyps6FbTa1Zh5mttxRot_t4N7mn68Pj%26s%3DjCesWT7oGgX76_y7PFh4cCIQ-Ife-esGblJyrBiDlro%26e%3D&data=04%7C01%7Ctgd%40oregonstate.edu%7Cfe236f1b41ad46b207f208d9e7d5fbe7%7Cce6d05e13c5e4d6287a84c4a2713c113%7C0%7C0%7C637795730372759823%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=VcsruBhcuGiqE8PWjadj90uFUnsUgXMsUTHuxmFfxKk%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Asim Roy |
iSearch (asu.edu)</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
Connectionists <<a
href="mailto:connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Gary Marcus<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February
2, 2022 1:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Geoffrey Hinton <<a
href="mailto:geoffrey.hinton@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">geoffrey.hinton@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> AIhub <<a
href="mailto:aihuborg@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">aihuborg@gmail.com</a>>;
<a
href="mailto:connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">connectionists@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
Connectionists: Stephen Hanson in
conversation with Geoff Hinton<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Dear
Geoff, and interested others,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">What,
for example, would you make of a
system that often drew the
red-hatted hamster you requested,
and perhaps a fifth of the time
gave you utter nonsense? Or say
one that you trained to create
birds but sometimes output stuff
like this:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><image001.png><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">One
could <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">a.
avert one’s eyes and deem the
anomalous outputs irrelevant<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">or<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">b.
wonder if it might be possible
that sometimes the system gets the
right answer for the wrong reasons
(eg partial historical
contingency), and wonder whether
another approach might be
indicated.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Benchmarks
are harder than they look; most of
the field has come to recognize
that. The Turing Test has turned
out to be a lousy measure of
intelligence, easily gamed. It has
turned out empirically that the
Winograd Schema Challenge did not
measure common sense as well as
Hector might have thought. (As it
happens, I am a minor coauthor of
a very recent review on this very
topic: <a
href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Farxiv.org%2Fabs%2F2201.02387__%3B!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!INA0AMmG3iD1B8MDtLfjWCwcBjxO-e-eM2Ci9KEO_XYOiIEgiywK-G_8j6L3bHA%24&data=04%7C01%7Ctgd%40oregonstate.edu%7Cfe236f1b41ad46b207f208d9e7d5fbe7%7Cce6d05e13c5e4d6287a84c4a2713c113%7C0%7C0%7C637795730372759823%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=GW0nhKsLRzdzUwXga9mgmMHOII98elKIMxX5%2FJ7ZNnU%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://arxiv.org/abs/2201.02387</a>)
But its conquest in no way means
machines now have common sense;
many people from many different
perspectives recognize that
(including, e.g., Yann LeCun, who
generally tends to be more aligned
with you than with me).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">So:
on the goalpost of the Winograd
schema, I was wrong, and you can
quote me; but what you said about
me and machine translation remains
your invention, and it is
inexcusable that you simply
ignored my 2019 clarification. On
the essential goal of trying to
reach meaning and understanding, I
remain unmoved; the problem
remains unsolved. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">All
of the problems LLMs have with
coherence, reliability,
truthfulness, misinformation, etc
stand witness to that fact. (Their
persistent inability to filter out
toxic and insulting remarks stems
from the same.) I am hardly the
only person in the field to see
that progress on any given
benchmark does not inherently mean
that the deep underlying problems
have solved. You, yourself, in
fact, have occasionally made that
point. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">With
respect to embeddings: Embeddings
are very good for natural language
<i>processing</i>; but NLP is not
the same as NL<i>U</i> – when it
comes to <i>understanding</i>,
their worth is still an open
question. Perhaps they will turn
out to be necessary; they clearly
aren’t sufficient. In their
extreme, they might even collapse
into being symbols, in the sense
of uniquely identifiable
encodings, akin to the ASCII code,
in which a specific set of numbers
stands for a specific word or
concept. (Wouldn’t that be
ironic?)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">(Your
GLOM, which as you know I praised
publicly, is in many ways an
effort to wind up with encodings
that effectively serve as symbols
in exactly that way, guaranteed to
serve as consistent
representations of specific
concepts.)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Notably
absent from your email is any kind
of apology for misrepresenting my
position. It’s fine to say that
“many people thirty years ago once
thought X” and another to say
“Gary Marcus said X in 2015”, when
I didn’t. I have consistently felt
throughout our interactions that
you have mistaken me for Zenon
Pylyshyn; indeed, you once (at
NeurIPS 2014) apologized to me for
having made that error. I am still
not he. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Which
maybe connects to the last point;
if you read my work, you would see
thirty years of arguments
<i>for</i> neural networks, just
not in the way that you want them
to exist. I have ALWAYS argued
that there is a role for them;
characterizing me as a person
“strongly opposed to neural
networks” misses the whole point
of my 2001 book, which was
subtitled “Integrating
Connectionism and Cognitive
Science.”<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">In
the last two decades or so you
have insisted (for reasons you
have never fully clarified, so far
as I know) on abandoning
symbol-manipulation, but the
reverse is not the case: I have <i>never</i>
called for dismissal of neural
networks, but rather for some
hybrid between the two (as you
yourself contemplated in 1991);
the point of the 2001 book was to
characterize exactly where
multilayer perceptrons succeeded
and broke down, and where symbols
could complement them. It’s a
rhetorical trick (which is what
the previous thread was about) to
pretend otherwise.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Gary<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">On
Feb 2, 2022, at 11:22, Geoffrey
Hinton <<a
href="mailto:geoffrey.hinton@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">geoffrey.hinton@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Embeddings
are just vectors of soft
feature detectors and they are
very good for NLP. The quote
on my webpage from Gary's 2015
chapter implies the opposite.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">A
few decades ago, everyone I
knew then would have agreed
that the ability to
translate a sentence into
many different languages was
strong evidence that you
understood it.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">But
once neural networks could
do that, their critics moved
the goalposts. An exception
is Hector Levesque who
defined the goalposts more
sharply by saying that the
ability to get pronoun
references correct in
Winograd sentences is a
crucial test. Neural nets
are improving at that but
still have some way to go.
Will Gary agree that when
they can get pronoun
references correct in
Winograd sentences they
really do understand? Or
does he want to reserve the
right to weasel out of that
too?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Some
people, like Gary, appear to
be strongly opposed to
neural networks because they
do not fit their
preconceived notions of how
the mind should work.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I
believe that any
reasonable person would
admit that if you ask a
neural net to draw a
picture of a hamster
wearing a red hat and it
draws such a picture, it
understood the request.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Geoff<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 1:38 PM
Gary Marcus <<a
href="mailto:gary.marcus@nyu.edu"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">gary.marcus@nyu.edu</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">Dear AI Hub,
cc: Steven Hanson
and Geoffrey
Hinton, and the
larger neural
network community,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">There has
been a lot of
recent discussion
on this list about
framing and
scientific
integrity. Often
the first step in
restructuring
narratives is to
bully and
dehumanize
critics. The
second is to
misrepresent their
position. People
in positions of
power are
sometimes tempted
to do this.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">The
Hinton-Hanson
interview that you
just published is
a real-time
example of just
that. It opens
with a needless
and largely
content-free
personal attack on
a single scholar
(me), with the
explicit intention
of discrediting
that person.
Worse, the only
substantive thing
it says is false.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">Hinton says
“In 2015 he
[Marcus] made a
prediction that
computers wouldn’t
be able to do
machine
translation.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">I never said
any such thing. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">What I
predicted, rather,
was that
multilayer
perceptrons, as
they existed then,
would not (on
their own, absent
other mechanisms) </span><i><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleItalicBody">understand</span></i><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody"> language.
Seven years later,
they still
haven’t, except in
the most
superficial way.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">I made no
comment whatsoever
about machine
translation, which
I view as a
separate problem,
solvable to a
certain degree by
correspondance
without
semantics. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">I
specifically tried
to clarify
Hinton’s confusion
in 2019, but,
disappointingly,
he has continued
to purvey
misinformation
despite that
clarification.
Here is what I
wrote privately to
him then, which
should have put
the matter to
rest:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div
style="margin-left:27.0pt;font-stretch:normal">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">You have
taken a single out
of context quote
[from 2015] and
misrepresented it.
The quote, which
you have
prominently
displayed at the
bottom on your own
web page, says:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div
style="margin-left:27.0pt;font-stretch:normal;min-height:22.9px">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div
style="margin-left:.75in;font-stretch:normal">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">Hierarchies
of features are
less suited to
challenges such as
language,
inference, and
high-level
planning. For
example, as Noam
Chomsky famously
pointed out,
language is filled
with sentences you
haven't seen
before. Pure
classifier systems
don't know what to
do with such
sentences. The
talent of feature
detectors --
in identifying
which member of
some category
something belongs
to -- doesn't
translate into
understanding
novel sentences,
in which each
sentence has its
own unique
meaning. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div
style="margin-left:27.0pt;font-stretch:normal;min-height:22.9px">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div
style="margin-left:27.0pt;font-stretch:normal">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">It does </span><i><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleItalicBody">not</span></i><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody"> say "neural
nets would not be
able to deal with
novel sentences";
it says that
hierachies of
features detectors
(on their own, if
you read the
context of the
essay) would have
trouble </span><i><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleItalicBody">understanding </span></i><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">novel sentences.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div
style="margin-left:27.0pt;font-stretch:normal;min-height:22.9px">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div
style="margin-left:27.0pt;font-stretch:normal">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">Google
Translate does yet
not </span><i><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleItalicBody">understand</span></i><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody"> the content
of the sentences
is translates. It
cannot reliably
answer questions
about who did what
to whom, or why,
it cannot infer
the order of the
events in
paragraphs, it
can't determine
the internal
consistency of
those events, and
so forth.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">Since then, a
number of
scholars, such as
the the
computational
linguist Emily
Bender, have made
similar points,
and indeed current
LLM difficulties
with
misinformation,
incoherence and
fabrication all
follow from these
concerns. Quoting
from Bender’s
prizewinning 2020
ACL article on the
matter with
Alexander Koller, <a
href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__aclanthology.org_2020.acl-2Dmain.463.pdf%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DslrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ%26r%3DwQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ%26m%3DxnFSVUARkfmiXtiTP_uXfFKv4uNEGgEeTluRFR7dnUpay2BM5EiLz-XYCkBNJLlL%26s%3DK-Vl6vSvzuYtRMi-s4j7mzPkNRTb-I6Zmf7rbuKEBpk%26e%3D&data=04%7C01%7Ctgd%40oregonstate.edu%7Cfe236f1b41ad46b207f208d9e7d5fbe7%7Cce6d05e13c5e4d6287a84c4a2713c113%7C0%7C0%7C637795730372759823%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=B4j1RHz%2B9YHApNdcbTZytuS7CdLqhhELB%2BcZTt48xms%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://aclanthology.org/2020.acl-main.463.pdf</a>,
also emphasizing
issues of
understanding and
meaning:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div
style="margin-left:27.0pt;font-stretch:normal">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleItalicBody">The
success of the
large neural
language models
on many NLP
tasks is
exciting.
However, we find
that these
successes
sometimes lead
to hype in which
these models are
being described
as
“understanding”
language or
capturing
“meaning”. In
this position
paper, we argue
that a system
trained only on
form has a
priori no way to
learn meaning.
.. a clear
understanding of
the distinction
between form and
meaning will
help guide the
field towards
better science
around natural
language
understanding. </span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">Her later
article with Gebru
on language models
“stochastic
parrots” is in
some ways an
extension of this
point; machine
translation
requires mimicry,
true understanding
(which is what I
was discussing in
2015) requires
something deeper
than that. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">Hinton’s
intellectual error
here is in
equating machine
translation with
the deeper
comprehension that
robust natural
language
understanding will
require; as Bender
and Koller
observed, the two
appear not to be
the same. (There
is a longer
discussion of the
relation between
language
understanding and
machine
translation, and
why the latter has
turned out to be
more approachable
than the former,
in my 2019 book
with Ernest
Davis).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">More broadly,
Hinton’s ongoing
dismissiveness of
research from
perspectives other
than his own (e.g.
linguistics) have
done the field a
disservice. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">As Herb Simon
once observed,
science does not
have to be
zero-sum.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">Sincerely,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">Gary Marcus</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">Professor
Emeritus</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:UICTFontTextStyleBody">New York
University</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">On
Feb 2, 2022, at
06:12, AIhub <<a
href="mailto:aihuborg@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">aihuborg@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Stephen
Hanson in
conversation
with Geoff
Hinton<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">In the latest
episode of this
video series for
<a
href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__AIhub.org%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DslrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ%26r%3DwQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ%26m%3DxnFSVUARkfmiXtiTP_uXfFKv4uNEGgEeTluRFR7dnUpay2BM5EiLz-XYCkBNJLlL%26s%3DeOtzMh8ILIH5EF7K20Ks4Fr27XfNV_F24bkj-SPk-2A%26e%3D&data=04%7C01%7Ctgd%40oregonstate.edu%7Cfe236f1b41ad46b207f208d9e7d5fbe7%7Cce6d05e13c5e4d6287a84c4a2713c113%7C0%7C0%7C637795730372759823%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Wpm7HzprwI4R6J2C4qBtBgEs7qwvFWYFqA4yxEMx6aU%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
AIhub.org</a>,
Stephen Hanson
talks to Geoff
Hinton about
neural networks,
backpropagation,
overparameterization, digit recognition, voxel cells, syntax and
semantics,
Winograd
sentences, and
more.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">You can watch
the
discussion,
and read the
transcript,
here:<br
clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__aihub.org_2022_02_02_what-2Dis-2Dai-2Dstephen-2Dhanson-2Din-2Dconversation-2Dwith-2Dgeoff-2Dhinton_%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DslrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ%26r%3DwQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ%26m%3Dyl7-VPSvMrHWYKZFtKdFpThQ9UTb2jW14grhVOlAwV21R4FwPri0ROJ-uFdMqHy1%26s%3DOY_RYGrfxOqV7XeNJDHuzE--aEtmNRaEyQ0VJkqFCWw%26e%3D&data=04%7C01%7Ctgd%40oregonstate.edu%7Cfe236f1b41ad46b207f208d9e7d5fbe7%7Cce6d05e13c5e4d6287a84c4a2713c113%7C0%7C0%7C637795730372759823%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=PpSkqWx1E%2BKzNyAmsGPuwtMDBcsKvaFCcPIrygyAexs%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://aihub.org/2022/02/02/what-is-ai-stephen-hanson-in-conversation-with-geoff-hinton/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">About
AIhub: </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">AIhub
is a
non-profit
dedicated to
connecting the
AI community
to the public
by providing
free,
high-quality
information
through
<a
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
AIhub.org</a>
(<a
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://aihub.org/</a>). We help
researchers
publish the
latest AI
news,
summaries of
their work,
opinion
pieces,
tutorials and
more. We are
supported by
many leading
scientific
organizations
in AI, namely
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AAAI</a>, <a
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NeurIPS</a>, <a
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
ICML</a>, <a
href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__www.journals.elsevier.com_artificial-2Dintelligence%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DslrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ%26r%3DwQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ%26m%3Dyl7-VPSvMrHWYKZFtKdFpThQ9UTb2jW14grhVOlAwV21R4FwPri0ROJ-uFdMqHy1%26s%3DeWrRCVWlcbySaH3XgacPpi0iR0-NDQYCLJ1x5yyMr8U%26e%3D&data=04%7C01%7Ctgd%40oregonstate.edu%7Cfe236f1b41ad46b207f208d9e7d5fbe7%7Cce6d05e13c5e4d6287a84c4a2713c113%7C0%7C0%7C637795730372916012%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=vBzk1t7z%2BkTnDpnbpoPtOcebMr27SgB2gPqcVW%2FbSKM%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
AIJ</a>/<a
href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__www.journals.elsevier.com_artificial-2Dintelligence%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DslrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ%26r%3DwQR1NePCSj6dOGDD0r6B5Kn1fcNaTMg7tARe7TdEDqQ%26m%3Dyl7-VPSvMrHWYKZFtKdFpThQ9UTb2jW14grhVOlAwV21R4FwPri0ROJ-uFdMqHy1%26s%3DeWrRCVWlcbySaH3XgacPpi0iR0-NDQYCLJ1x5yyMr8U%26e%3D&data=04%7C01%7Ctgd%40oregonstate.edu%7Cfe236f1b41ad46b207f208d9e7d5fbe7%7Cce6d05e13c5e4d6287a84c4a2713c113%7C0%7C0%7C637795730372916012%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=vBzk1t7z%2BkTnDpnbpoPtOcebMr27SgB2gPqcVW%2FbSKM%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">IJCAI</a>,
<a
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
ACM SIGAI</a>,
EurAI/AICOMM,
<a
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
CLAIRE</a> and
<a
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
RoboCup</a>.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Twitter:
@aihuborg</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
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