<html><head></head><body><div class="ydp861823dcyahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Hi All,</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> Some remarks/thoughts:</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">1. Juergen raises important points relevant not just to the ML folks but also the wider scientific community</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">2. Setting aside broader aspects of the social quality of the scientific enterprise, let's take a look at a simpler thing; individual duty. Each scientist has a duty to science (as an intellectual discipline) and the scientific community, to uphold fundamental principles informing the conduct of science. Credit should be given wherever it is due - it is a matter of duty, not preference or "strategic vale" or boosting someone because they're a great populariser. <br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">3. Crediting those who disseminate is fine and dandy, but should be for those precise contributions, AND the originators of an idea/method/body of work ought to be recognised - this is perhaps a bit difficult when the work is obscured by history, but not impossible. At any rate, if one has novel information of pertinence w.r.t original work, then the right action is crystal clear. <br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">4. Academic science has loads of problems and I think there is some urgency w.r.t sorting them out. For three reasons; a) scientific duty b) for posterity and c) we now live in a world where anti-science sentiments are not limited to fringe elements and this does not bode well for humanity. <br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Maybe dealing with proper credit assignment as pointed out by Juergen and others in the thread could be a start. <br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Live Long and Prosper!</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Best, <br></div><div><br></div><div class="ydp861823dcsignature">Anand Ramamoorthy<div><br></div></div></div>
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On Friday, 29 October 2021, 08:39:14 BST, Jonathan D. Cohen <jdc@princeton.edu> wrote:
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The same incentive structures (and values they reflect) are not necessarily the same — nor should they necessary be — in commercial and academic environments.<br class="ydpd476153dyiv6557179526">
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<div class="ydpd476153dyiv6557179526">On Oct 28, 2021, at 12:03 PM, Marina Meila <<a href="mailto:mmp2@uw.edu" class="ydpd476153dyiv6557179526" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mmp2@uw.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
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Since credit is a form of currency in academia, let's look at the "hard currency" rewards of invention. Who gets them? the first company to create a new product usually fails.</div>
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However, the interesting thing is that society (by this I mean the society most of us we work in) has found it necessary to counteract this, and we have patent laws to protect the rights of the inventors.</div>
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The point is not whether patent laws are effective or not, it's the social norm they implement. That to protect invention one should pay attention to rewarding the original inventors, whether we get the "product" directly from them or not.<span class="ydpd476153dyiv6557179526Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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Best wishes,</div>
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Marina</div>
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-- Marina Meila</div>
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Professor of Statistics</div>
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University of Washington</div>
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On 10/28/21, 5:59 AM, "Connectionists" <<a href="mailto:connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu" class="ydpd476153dyiv6557179526" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">connectionists-bounces@mailman.srv.cs.cmu.edu</a>> wrote:</p>
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As a friendly amendment to both Randy and Danko’s comments, it is also worth noting that science is an *intrinsically social* endeavor, and therefore communication is a fundamental factor. This may help explain why the *last* person to invent or discover something
is the one who gets the [social] credit. That is, giving credit to those who disseminate may even have normative value. After all, if a tree falls in the forrest… As for those who care more about discovery and invention than dissemination, well, for them
credit assignment may not be as important ;^).<span class="ydpd476153dyiv6557179526Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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jdc</div>
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On Oct 28, 2021, at 4:23 AM, Danko Nikolic <<a href="mailto:danko.nikolic@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration-line: underline; text-decoration-style: solid; text-decoration-color: currentcolor;" class="ydpd476153dyiv6557179526" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">danko.nikolic@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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Yes Randall, sadly so. I have seen similar examples in neuroscience and philosophy of mind. Often, (but not always), you have to be the one who popularizes the thing to get the credit. Sometimes, you can get away, you just do the hard conceptual work and others
doing for you the (also hard) marketing work. The best bet is doing both by yourself. Still no guarantee. </div>
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Danko</div>
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On Thu, 28 Oct 2021, 10:13 Randall O'Reilly <<a href="mailto:oreilly@ucdavis.edu" style="color: blue; text-decoration-line: underline; text-decoration-style: solid; text-decoration-color: currentcolor;" class="ydpd476153dyiv6557179526" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">oreilly@ucdavis.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
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I vaguely remember someone making an interesting case a while back that it is the *last* person to invent something that gets all the credit. This is almost by definition: once it is sufficiently widely known, nobody can successfully reinvent it; conversely,
if it can be successfully reinvented, then the previous attempts failed for one reason or another (which may have nothing to do with the merit of the work in question).</div>
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For example, I remember being surprised how little Einstein added to what was already established by Lorentz and others, at the mathematical level, in the theory of special relativity. But he put those equations into a conceptual framework that obviously changed
our understanding of basic physical concepts. Sometimes, it is not the basic equations etc that matter: it is the big picture vision.</div>
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Cheers,</div>
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- Randy</div>
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> On Oct 27, 2021, at 12:52 AM, Schmidhuber Juergen <<a href="mailto:juergen@idsia.ch" style="color: blue; text-decoration-line: underline; text-decoration-style: solid; text-decoration-color: currentcolor;" class="ydpd476153dyiv6557179526" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">juergen@idsia.ch</a>> wrote:</div>
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> Hi, fellow artificial neural network enthusiasts!</div>
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> The connectionists mailing list is perhaps the oldest mailing list on ANNs, and many neural net pioneers are still subscribed to it. I am hoping that some of them - as well as their contemporaries - might be able to provide additional valuable insights into
the history of the field.</div>
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> Following the great success of massive open online peer review (MOOR) for my 2015 survey of deep learning (now the most cited article ever published in the journal Neural Networks), I've decided to put forward another piece for MOOR. I want to thank the many
experts who have already provided me with comments on it. Please send additional relevant references and suggestions for improvements for the following draft directly to me at<span class="ydpd476153dyiv6557179526Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:juergen@idsia.ch" style="color: blue; text-decoration-line: underline; text-decoration-style: solid; text-decoration-color: currentcolor;" class="ydpd476153dyiv6557179526" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">juergen@idsia.ch</a>:</div>
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><span class="ydpd476153dyiv6557179526Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://people.idsia.ch/~juergen/scientific-integrity-turing-award-deep-learning.html" style="color: blue; text-decoration-line: underline; text-decoration-style: solid; text-decoration-color: currentcolor;" class="ydpd476153dyiv6557179526" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://people.idsia.ch/~juergen/scientific-integrity-turing-award-deep-learning.html</a></div>
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> The above is a point-for-point critique of factual errors in ACM's justification of the ACM A. M. Turing Award for deep learning and a critique of the Turing Lecture published by ACM in July 2021. This work can also be seen as a short history of deep learning,
at least as far as ACM's errors and the Turing Lecture are concerned.</div>
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> I know that some view this as a controversial topic. However, it is the very nature of science to resolve controversies through facts. Credit assignment is as core to scientific history as it is to machine learning. My aim is to ensure that the true history
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> Thank you all in advance for your help!<span class="ydpd476153dyiv6557179526Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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> Jürgen Schmidhuber</div>
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